I am stumped ---- Coolant Leak

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:09 pm

racertracer wrote:

papaindigo wrote:

1) check actual temp at top of tstat with infrared temp gauge;

I don't have an infra red gauge. I looked for one on the net and some are very costly, not sure if a cheap 40 dollar one would work? How high should the IF gauge be able to read.. how high do the temps get?

Cheap $40 dollor one should be fine for this purpose.

racertracer wrote:

papaindigo wrote:

Assume for discussion purposes it's really running hot have you checked the function of you fan clutch?

The Fan clutch is new and I have not heard it come on.

Run the jeep in your driveway and block off airflow through the radiator with cardboard to force the temp up to see if the fan activates.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:17 pm

WolverineFW wrote:

Run the jeep in your driveway and block off airflow through the radiator with cardboard to force the temp up to see if the fan activates.

OK.....The fan works. Ordering the IF thermometer now.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:29 pm

There is something definetely wrong here:

I picked up an inexpensive infrared thermometer at the Home Depot

It's a Ryobi Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer IR001
Model # IR001
Internet # 100674438
Store SKU # 699814
Overall rating 4.5 / 5
$29.97

Here is the data for what it's worth:

I took a trip on the highway traveling at 65 miles an hour for approximately 26 miles total for the trip.

The temperature was measured at 5 locations on the vehicle.

Location number 1 taken at top of thermostat.
Location number 2 taken at top of engine nearest the CCV puck.
Location number 3 taken at fan clutch.
Location number 4 taken at top of radiator nearest top radiator hose.
Location number 5 taken at center heater vent deep inside the duct closest to heater core.
Location Number 6 visual inspection of temperature gauge indicator on the dash.

First leg total miles traveled = 13.5.
Temprature gauge position on dash - 176 deg. just left of center.

65 miles per hour - 13.5 miles later I pulled over and collected data for the first leg temps:

1. 198F - at thermostat
2. 188F - at puck
3. 123F - at fan clutch
4. 133F - at radiator
5. 241F - 246F inside the air vent duct aiming the laser down toward the heater core as close as possible.

6. 176f - temperature gauge indicator on dash.

Time of day = midday
Outside Temp 72deg F.

Second leg of trip.
Temprature gauge position on dash - 176 deg. just left of center.

65 miles per hour collected data at end of trip:

1. 204F - at thermostat
2. 212F - at puck
3. 151F - at fan clutch
4. 142F - at radiator
5. 244F - 245F inside the air vent duct aiming the laser down toward the heater core as close as possible.

6. 176f - temperature gauge indicator on dash just left of center.

Outside Temp 69 deg F.

I don't like what I see.

Those of you with an infrared temperature device, a comparison would be good.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:06 pm

Glad you got my message.

I have the same tool, so I'll take a drive tomorrow and let you know what I come up with. Fair warning, I do not have a fan clutch and I DO have the in-hose 192* thermostat now, so bear that in mind.

I'm not exactly surprised about the heater core being hot, I would expect that to be the hottest - There isn't any airflow through that core unless you are using the heater, so it will tend to heat-soak.

As far as the clutch location anyway, that would tend to be cooler as it has been cooled by the airflow through the radiator. Imagine how hot the radiator would actually be if the clutch NEEDED to activate.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:17 am

geordi - assuming we successfully get together this weekend we can check my temps also although I will be running Kap's fixed fan by then (I'm 98% done with the install and Aussie fan shroud mod - just had to pickup some antiseize for the fan nut which was a $%& to remove even with the Lisle tool, had to resort to the allen wrench against the nut trick).

racer - I don't know if those temps are out of line but with those temps at the tstat head compared to the gauge I'd really wonder about the accuracy of the temp sending unit on the tstat housing as I've seen similar units send bad signals. Of course if you are really running hot then improved accuracy of the dash temp gauge won't "fix" anything. If, in fact, those temps indicate you are running hot which would put coolant in the overflow I toss out the following without going back over your earlier posts:
1. if you are running an OEM fan clutch is it shot?
2. have you done a cooling system flush/flow test?
3. if you are running an OEM tstat has it failed closed (e.g. is it sending most all the flow thru the bypass system)?
4. re. the heater core is the viscous heater running all the time? You might want to check temp into/out of the viscous heater.

RJM · **Posted:** Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:07 pm

Have you checked the EGR cooler?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:24 am

Ok, so I spoke with Racer tonight on the phone... It seems that he definitely has another exhaust leak into the coolant system. We did some checking and comparing with my CRD and I would like to get everyone else's opinions on these items too, if you can check them.

On a stone-cold (8 hours+) engine, try squeezing the radiator hose that runs from the thermostat to the radiator. (this will be the only hose I refer to from now on) Does it feel pressurized at all?
Open the radiator cap (STILL on a cold engine) - Any noise / hissing / pressure at all?
Close the cap back securely, start the engine and let it idle.
Squeeze that radiator hose again (This won't show anything different unless you know you have a failed-open thermostat) Any difference?
After about 30 seconds to 1 minute of idling, shut the engine off, open the radiator cap again. Any hissing / pressure?

On mine, the results were unequivocal - No hissing from the cap, the hose was easily compressed with the engine off. I did not attempt with the engine running and cold, I will try that tomorrow.

I drove mine for about 12 miles at 45-60mph (Sorry, country roads and I am NOT getting a ticket here in Buford-ville. At the destination, I measured the following temps with my own Ryobi IR temp gun:

Thermostat (factory housing): 185/190
Radiator at the top vent, gun pointed at the corner of the radiator housing: 160
Fan shroud / behind radiator (tried to aim at the center pulley, as I have no fan installed): 135.
Hose was firm (engine off and hot) but I could squeeze it somewhat between my thumb and index finger. I'm estimating normal pressure of 16psi, feels about right.

Drove it back home, accelerating hard several times from 30-60mph, boost would max at 20, EGT at 1300 for these brief WOT stretches.
Measured the following, same locations:
Thermo: 178
Cylinder head (ok, this was a new idea I had - back by the CCV puck, right on top of the engine): 178
Radiator top vent: 160
Clutch area: 140

So the thermostat was a little cooler, while the rest were the same or slightly warmer. Racer... You still have something wrong in there. Like I suggested on the phone, I would try bypassing your EGR cooler just for a little while as a test, it can't hurt anything if it isn't the problem, especially since you have a GDE tune.

Best of luck man.

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:40 pm

Guess this will forever remain a mystery. Though now I'm nervous since I had the same original problem he had and I am also getting a new head (dealer says it'll be ready next week). Though since I had the dealer do it and used a re-man Mopar head I get a 3-year warranty. Would have been curious what went wrong on his so I'd know what to look for when mine comes back.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:32 pm

I would be cautious about believing the dealership about any 3-year warranty claims. Racer also had his done by a dealership, and their answer was "We offer NO WARRANTY on head gaskets" and (I believe) had told him that since they didn't warranty the gasket, he would be on the hook for the whole job again.

He was going to be having VM work on this with him... Now, that is no longer possible. From his diagnostics, I do believe that he had a leak into the water system from somewhere else. The only other place I can think of where exhaust gas meets the water system is in the EGR cooler. Luckily, that is a separate component that can be relatively easily bypassed as a test.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:55 pm

Given a lack of warranty, I would seriously consider the use of arp studs.

RJM · **Posted:** Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:07 pm

No need to bypass the egr cooler to test it, all you need is a rubber plug, a short length of tubing, a jar of water and a little back pressure on the exhaust.

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:41 pm

geordi wrote:

I would be cautious about believing the dealership about any 3-year warranty claims. Racer also had his done by a dealership, and their answer was "We offer NO WARRANTY on head gaskets" and (I believe) had told him that since they didn't warranty the gasket, he would be on the hook for the whole job again.

Well, I was told that in order to build confidence in their reman products, Mopar offers a 3-year warranty on reman parts so the head will be covered for 3 years. The work and everything else has a 1-year warranty.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:08 pm

You might be right about that, and you might also (if you are VERY VERY lucky) get it in writing from them.

In my experience however, if they can point at something not-warranted as a potential source of the problem, they will use that as leverage to declare the entire job non-warranty, because then they get to charge you full-rate rather than accepting the warranty's book flat rate.

Perfect example: On my Jetta, I had a "full bumper to bumper" extended warranty. I had a code come up for a failed fuel temperature sensor, which is a tiny little resistor in the top of the injector pump. Takes about 5 minutes to change out.

The dealership told me that they would need to replace the ENTIRE injection pump because of this failure, and that it was not covered under the warranty. I questioned why, and this was the reply I got:

"Our diagnosis is that the fuel temperature sensor has failed because of excessive under-hood temperatures caused by the black color of your hood. That isn't covered by the warranty."

Let me get this straight - You are blaming the FACTORY PAINT COLOR for causing an engine component to fail? (This was said VERY loudly, in a completely full service area. Yes, I wanted negative attention brought down on these fools)

They refused to budge, I declined their $3500 estimate and requested my car back. While they were getting it, I bought the sensor for $15 from their own parts counter. They gave me the car, "no-charge" listed on their paperwork, and I left. The next time I went in there for service, I was told that I would need to pay them $200 for their "diagnostic work" on that temp sensor, before they would service my warranty again. I declined. I asked them why the paper said "No Charge" and they gave me back my car, if I was somehow owing them money... No reply, other than the manager "suggesting" that my business was no longer needed at their dealership.

Do not underestimate the stupidity of a car dealership. If you know your rights... You become a liability to them, and they will not want you as a customer.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:56 pm

After speaking with two very reputable people regarding the overheating issue, I've come to the conclusion that there may be three contributing causes to the overheating issue of my CRD.

1. Lack of cool ambient air to the intake will cause the engine to overheat.
My bad: I removed the accordion tube that connects the front grill area to the air filter box thus preventing a constant supply of ambient air.
I did this during the winter months to get the engine warmer faster and never replaced it when the weather got warmer.

2. The existing system coolant flow is minimal at best and should be increased somehow.
3. A clogged air filter restricting air flow.
My air filter was new but I modified the box to accept CCV fumes (elephant hose MOD in the air box) which caused the filter to get clogged easily.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:47 pm

You never called me back...

I disagree with your theory on those three points, I have done two of them and had no change in the performance of my CRD.

The accordian tube shouldn't make that much of a difference, the air flowing around the headlamp runs square into the front of the airbox area, whether that snorkel to the grille is there or not. That shouldn't make any difference.

I tried the same CCV-to-the-filtered-side as you, also with the result of trashing my filter in short order... And no result on the heating of the engine.

Now... The water flow question - You make an interesting point, that I wonder about. I have seen the inside of the water pump, it isn't the largest set of impellers ever... I wonder if it is possible that the impellers wore down or the plastic hub separated from the shaft and your water flow was minimal because of that? It would explain a LOT about your problems, including how you measured super-hot temps down in the heater core, when the thermostat housing wasn't that hot. It wouldn't explain the pressurization problem however.

All that seems moot at the moment however, as your CRD has a new cooling problem of a very large object blocking the radiator - Oh, it is road crap jammed in there. I'm sure you can buff that out. :SOMBRERO:

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:40 am

geordi wrote:

I disagree with your theory on those three points, I have done two of them and had no change in the performance of my CRD.

There is no change in performance.... the noticeable difference is an undetectable coolant leak and a low coolant light.

geordi wrote:

The accordian tube shouldn't make that much of a difference, the air flowing around the headlamp runs square into the front of the airbox area, whether that snorkel to the grille is there or not. That shouldn't make any difference.

It does make a difference.

I noticed that when I came to a full stop after a long highway drive at top speeds, the Infrared temperature guage indicated that the coolant reached rediculously high temps .... the engine needs to breath fresh ambient air quickly the more air available the better.

We should put our heads together to come up with a way to get more ambient air to come into the air box especially while at a full stop after a long hot drive, it is then that the engine temps go up to extreme.

geordi wrote:

I tried the same CCV-to-the-filtered-side as you, also with the result of trashing my filter in short order... And no result on the heating of the engine.

That is because you are going by what the temperature gauge on the dash is indicating.... I wouldn't trust it at all beause I have proof it does not reflect the correct temps.

geordi wrote:

Now... The water flow question - You make an interesting point, that I wonder about. I have seen the inside of the water pump, it isn't the largest set of impellers ever... I wonder if it is possible that the impellers wore down or the plastic hub separated from the shaft and your water flow was minimal because of that? It would explain a LOT about your problems, including how you measured super-hot temps down in the heater core, when the thermostat housing wasn't that hot. It wouldn't explain the pressurization problem however.

All that seems moot at the moment however, as your CRD has a new cooling problem of a very large object blocking the radiator - Oh, it is road crap jammed in there. I'm sure you can buff that out. :SOMBRERO:

The impellers did not wear down ..... I had uninterupted coolant flow, I could see it on the top of the bottle. New radiator.

The temps need to be brought down.

Coolant flow is dismal, we need to find a way to increase it, one way that was suggested to me is to remove and plug shut the coolant lines going into the EGR valve, this would increase the flow by approx. 8 litres more or less. This could only be done in conjuction with an unplugged MAF sensor, or a SEGR unit or the GDE tune installed which shut off the egr completely.

I was wondering if also there maybe a way to install a supplemental external electric coolant pump to the system to increase the flow of coolant. Any ideas on this one? Maybe this wouldn't work becasue the OEM water pump will not permit an increased flow of coolant?

Ideas and thoughts!!!

BTW.... for your info, the new VM 2.8L Panther engine, has a new water pump that produces twice the flow our pump does. Similar engine with increased coolant flow amungst other things.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:55 am

racertracer wrote:

<snip>
That is because you are going by what the temperature gauge on the dash is indicating.... I wouldn't trust it at all because I have proof it does not reflect the correct temps.

Coolant flow is dismal, we need to find a way to increase it, one way that was suggested to me is to remove and plug shut the coolant lines going into the EGR valve, this would increase the flow by approx. 8 litres more or less. This could only be done in conjunction with an unplugged MAF sensor, or a SEGR unit or the GDE tune installed which shut off the egr completely.

I was wondering if also there maybe a way to install a supplemental external electric coolant pump to the system to increase the flow of coolant. Any ideas on this one? Maybe this wouldn't work because the OEM water pump will not permit an increased flow of coolant?

Ideas and thoughts!!!

BTW.... for your info, the new VM 2.8L Panther engine, has a new water pump that produces twice the flow our pump does. Similar engine with increased coolant flow amongst other things.

Simple thought- can that Panther pump be installed in this engine? what would be needed, a different bracket or an adapter or what?

Another thought, can the flow diversion be managed at the old Tstat body?

Another one- the EGR cooling is required only when the EGR is active, right? That leads to a couple of possibilities.....

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:25 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

Simple thought- can that Panther pump be installed in this engine? what would be needed, a different bracket or an adapter or what?

This is s good question for GDE / VM Motori

LMWatBullRun wrote:

Another thought, can the flow diversion be managed at the old Tstat body?

Why..... what would be the need or difference ?

The info I was given regarding uninterupted ambient air flow is that ambient air must freely flow to the intake especially during turbo full spool. Air filters must be kept clean and inspected regularly, replaced on schedule or earlier if dirty to maintain the most constant air flow.

I had removed the tube connecting the air box to the front grill during the cold winter months so that the engine would warm up faster by sucking in hot engine compartment air, failing to replace it when the warmer months returned.

I may have been the one who caused the overheating problem of my CRD by the removing the air box connecting tube.

Any of you who have experienced head gasket problems and coolant leaks; was your air filter dirty or was the front accordian type connecting tube removed?

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:41 pm

racertracer wrote:

Any of you who have experienced head gasket problems and coolant leaks; was your air filter dirty or was the front accordian type connecting tube removed?

Nope. I replace my air filter every oil change - 12,500 miles. My head failure was caused by a messed up t-stat replacement (Father and I each thought the other had tightened that hose clamp) that caused a loss of coolant and overheat.

Jeep is STILL at the dealer. Supposed to get it back this week

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:53 pm

Jeep is now home. 9 weeks later

But she's running perfectly.

Grand total: $6,296

work done:
Jeep reman head
head gasket
timing belt
idler pulleys, tensioners, etc.
water pump
serp belt
heater core (do not wait until 100k to change your coolant - tech said it looked like jello in the heater core - tried to flush it but said it was still gunky)
radiator
lower rad hose (preventative since the rad was out already)
other sundry bolts, gaskets, etc.

Jeep's running like a top now so finger's crossed. Wife is happy and saved me from buying her a $53k Toureg TDi.

I am stumped ---- Coolant Leak

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