Going Synthetic....... Maybe.....

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:16 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

Was it verified that the Amsoil was the cause of the problem? Otherwise, it could be a host of many other problems. There's a lot of guys running Amsoil ATF in their 42RLE transmissions with no problems and with lots of miles, so it doesn't make sense to me. I called Amsoil last year and asked again about using their ATF in the 42RLE. They said they haven't received any reports that there was a concern, and that their Universal ATF met or exceeded Mopar's ATF+4 specifications.

.

It doesn't matter as amsoil is not certified by Chrysler to meet or beat it specs for ATF+4,wrong fluid no warranty.And yes the lack of lubegaurd(or not enough) killed the clutches.

I still can't believe so many fall for the "universal" part of anything.They say amsoil is good to replace DEXVI and ATF+4 but both have complete different additives that kill the others trans.Put DEXVI in a 45RFE and it's toast after some miles,put ATF+4 in a GM trans and it's toast.So how can one fluid work in both? Simple answer is it can't.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:34 am

The Amsoil Universal ATF Fluid works, and that’s a fact. It’s been proven in many applications. Independent laboratories have tested the Amsoil ATF and found no ill-effects when used in the correct applications. Amsoil will stand by their products 100%. Go to the Dodge Cummins forum and see all the many users who are using the Amsoil ATF in their transmissions. There are trucks with several hundred thousand miles on their transmissions with no problems and running Amsoil. I’ve used the Amsoil ATF in every application that I have and have never had a transmission issue. Until I see an UOA that proves otherwise, I’m going to leave it to the experts.

For anyone who has questions, give Tom Georgalos a call. He owns a transmission shop called, “Lee Myles” of Salinas California. According to Tom, the Amsoil transmission fluid is what he recommends to most of his customers. After talking to Tom, it is clear that Amsoil ATF is not only a good fluid, but it holds up to abuse much better than any dino product that he’s ever seen. His shop number is 877-853-8734 and email is GreekGT350@aol.com. Oh, and he also said you can call him on his cell: 408-671-0900. This guy deals with passengers cars, light duty trucks, race car applications, 18 wheelers, etc.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:30 pm

It's not a question of standing up to abuse - it's a question of having the right additive package to fit the transmission design.
the tranny's on Liberties are computer controlled - line pressures and shift points -
and the programming is designed exactly for ATF +4 properties not a suitable substitute.

you might get away with light usage - but if you push the capabilities, you'll kill it.

(FYI - to the original comments - ATF +4 is synthetic - the properties are just designed specifically for Mopar)

as for axles - Currie makes hot rod high performance axles - they don't recommend synthetic and they won't warranty any axles that's had synthetic used on it - they don't really have an Engineering analysis to explain it - pure pragmatism - they've killed too many axles with synthetic - so they won't use it.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:53 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

It’s been proven in many applications. Independent laboratories have tested the Amsoil ATF and found no ill-effects when used in the correct applications. Amsoil will stand by their products 100%. .

See that 1st sentance is the part that can not be overcome.No independant labs have certified amsoil better that the results were not bought and paid for by amsoil.Look at every single test done that includes amsoil and in the fine print at the very end amsoil paid for the tests.Almost all there oils are not even certified.I can also vouch for they will not honor any said warranty if there fluid was the cause of failure,which was proven on one of the trans I've worked on and they told the owner to pound sand right after Chrysler did for using the wrong fluid.

In bold cracks me up since the only correct apps are in vehicles requiring DEXIII or Mercon where the additive package was not a issue.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:54 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

as for axles - Currie makes hot rod high performance axles - they don't recommend synthetic and they won't warranty any axles that's had synthetic used on it - they don't really have an Engineering analysis to explain it - pure pragmatism - they've killed too many axles with synthetic - so they won't use it.

Yep Currie only recommends dino gear oil,so does Hi9,and why only dino 85w-140 goes in my RockJock60.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:32 pm

I agree that there isn’t one magic transmission oil. That’s why Amsoil makes 10 different types of transmission oils. Different applications requires different additives such as “Anti-wear/extreme-pressure agents (extend gear life), Durable friction modifiers (anti-shudder), Anti-oxidants (extend fluid life), Seal conditioners (reduce leaks), Detergents and dispersants (keep clean and control deposits), Corrosion inhibitors (control rust) and Anti-foam agents (improve hydraulic function). I’m not an expert, but I do believe those at Amsoil are experts and are working hard to produce a quality product. They have a huge reputation to withhold. All I know is that the AMSOIL Synthetic Multi-Vehicle ATF is recommended for transmissions, hydraulics, power steering and other applications requiring any of the following specifications:
• GM DEXRON® III-H
• Ford MERCON® & MERCON V
• Chrysler ATF+4®
• Toyota Type T-III and T-IV
• Honda Z-1 (Not CVT)
• Diamond SP II & III (Mitsubishi/Hyundai/Kia)
• Mazda ATF-III, ATF-MV
• Subaru ATF, ATF-HP
• Nissan Matic D, J & K
• Idemitsu K-17
• BMW LA2634
• LT 71141
• Audi G-052-025-A2 & G-052-162-A1
• Volvo 97340
• MB 236.1, 236.2, 236.5, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9 & 236.10
• JWS 3309
• NAG 1
• ETL-7045E, ETL-8072B & N402
• Voith 55.6335.XX (G607, G1363)
• ZF TE-ML 03D, 04D, 09, 14A, 14B, 14C, 16L, 17C
• Allison C-4, TES 389
• Mopar AS68RC

Note: Not for use with CVT or Ford Type F applications.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 2:41 pm

If you were to do a search on the CRD forum, there has been several instances of folks have shifting issues or other odd behaviors due to using something other than fluid with the ATF+4 spec. And most of the time, they were running the Amsoil universal fluid. You would seem to be the rare instance where the transmission and computer tolerated it.

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dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 4:32 pm

kdlewis1975 wrote:

If you were to do a search on the CRD forum, there has been several instances of folks have shifting issues or other odd behaviors due to using something other than fluid with the ATF+4 spec. And most of the time, they were running the Amsoil universal fluid. You would seem to be the rare instance where the transmission and computer tolerated it.

I can’t argue for or against the Amsoil ATF in the 42RLE since I have no data to prove whether it works or doesn’t work. I can, however, prove that the Amsoil ATF has shown better UOA’s than the Mopar ATF+4 in the Dodge Cummins transmissions. On the Cummins forum, many people run the Amsoil ATF and have better UOA’s. Simply put, the Amsoil ATF can be changed at longer intervals as proven by a UOA, hence why so many people use it. I have 83,000 on my Cummins and ¾ of those miles are towing miles. My maximum towing weight has been up to 15,000 lbs. So in the case of the Dodge Cummins transmissions, UOA’s prove that the Amsoil ATF is superior to the Mopar ATF+4. I only have 33,000 miles on my Jeep Liberty, but so far, I've had no transmission issues or a change of shifting due to running the Amsoil ATF. I’ve seen plenty of transmission problems on this forum from people running the Mopar ATF+4, therefore I can’t say for sure that the Amsoil by itself is the cause of failures. My 2005 CRD had lots of transmission problems with the Mopar ATF+4, hence why I traded it for a 2007 gasser. Once I put 35,000 miles on my jeep, then I’ll pull a UOA to see how it is performing. I put in Amsoil ATF when I had the shift kit installed, which was somewhere around the first 1,000 miles of owning it.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 9:17 pm

dieselenthusiast wrote:

My 2005 CRD had lots of transmission problems with the Mopar ATF+4, hence why I traded it for a 2007 gasser..

your posts say you bought it in the beginning of Jan 07 and traded it in by the end of Jan - and that it spend time in the shop for F37? and with less than 20K miles you were the 3rd? owner 4th?.

F37 was for the Torque converter, which was a real design problem - it had nothing to do with clutches or oil's - and if you were the 3rd or 4th owner - odds are there was another underlying problem - that the tech's couldn't identify - not unusual since they got a 45 min video on the diesel.

not saying you didn't have problems - but relating it to ATF+4 is real stretch....

and if you do search over in CRD land - because of the TC problems and the aftermarket swaps several folks had the opportunity to test drive 'not ATF+4' and overwhelmingly they were 'not happy' and that included Amsoil.

FYI http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61955

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 9:53 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

dieselenthusiast wrote:

My 2005 CRD had lots of transmission problems with the Mopar ATF+4, hence why I traded it for a 2007 gasser..

your posts say you bought it in the beginning of Jan 07 and traded it in by the end of Jan - and that it spend time in the shop for F37? and with less than 20K miles you were the 3rd? owner 4th?.

F37 was for the Torque converter, which was a real design problem - it had nothing to do with clutches or oil's - and if you were the 3rd or 4th owner - odds are there was another underlying problem - that the tech's couldn't identify - not unusual since they got a 45 min video on the diesel.

not saying you didn't have problems - but relating it to ATF+4 is real stretch....

Let me clarify. I was the second owner of the CRD and bought it in 2006 with only 17,000 miles on it. Yes, I had the F37 recall and had the T.C. checked at the dealer. I'm not blaming the ATF+4 for my transmission problems. I'm just making a point that just because someone is running Amsoil ATF and are having transmission issues doesn't necessarily mean it’s an Amsoil issue. There are plenty of transmission issues on this forum that have nothing to do with Amsoil.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 10:44 pm

I have a CRD as well. The thing with the Amsoil is that it is not significantly cheaper than the ATF+4, so there isn't an economic argument for it. The UOAs may come back as "better," but if "better" is less than the experimental error of the analytical technique, then it's not really better. I've never had a UOA done, so I don't know if someone like Blackstone reports the typical accuracy of their results.

I'm not knocking your decision. I just don't think there is enough reason to forego the factory recommendation on this. It's great if the fluid works for you. I'm just aware that others have had issues when deviating from the specified ATF.

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dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 11:11 pm

kdlewis1975 wrote:

The thing with the Amsoil is that it is not significantly cheaper than the ATF+4, so there isn't an economic argument for it.

I agree

kdlewis1975 wrote:

The UOAs may come back as "better," but if "better" is less than the experimental error of the analytical technique, then it's not really better. I've never had a UOA done, so I don't know if someone like Blackstone reports the typical accuracy of their results.

UOA's are the most accurate way to tell what's going on in the transmission and how the oil is holding up. I have only seen UOA's for the Dodge Cummins, not the Jeep Liberty.

kdlewis1975 wrote:

I'm not knocking your decision. I just don't think there is enough reason to forego the factory recommendation on this. It's great if the fluid works for you. I'm just aware that others have had issues when deviating from the specified ATF.

I completely understand. It's good that people post up their real-world experiences. Those who are concerned or who have a bad experience need to do a follow-up by taking a UOA to help determine whether or not the transmission fluid is doing its job. Until I see a UOA, then I can't say it's good, bad, or indifferent. I have a few sample bottles here at the house, so when I get time, I’ll try to pull a sample and send it off to the lab. I will post my results here on the forum for all to see.

Smetna · **Posted:** Tue May 01, 2012 11:46 pm

All I know is, every single fluid in my KK is getting switched out with Mopar. (minus engine oil)

Spark plugs too. OEM everything.

Because the engineers do their quality and durability tests using Mopar stuff. Sure, maybe some different trans fluid or spark plugs can get you a bit more efficiency or a little more power. But all of that aside, what's the long term look like? Maybe things are getting hotter than they should, etc

I'm sticking with OEM

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 12:05 am

Smetna wrote:

All I know is, every single fluid in my KK is getting switched out with Mopar. (minus engine oil)

Spark plugs too. OEM everything.

Because the engineers do their quality and durability tests using Mopar stuff. Sure, maybe some different trans fluid or spark plugs can get you a bit more efficiency or a little more power. But all of that aside, what's the long term look like? Maybe things are getting hotter than they should, etc

I'm sticking with OEM

That's a safe bet, although, the factory OEM 10 micron fuel filter on my Dodge Cummins was declared inefficient and Mopar later changed it to a 7 micron filter. Bosch (who makes the injectors for the Cummins) said that they recommend a 2 micron fuel filter. So I have an aftermarket 2 micron filter to meet the recommendations of Bosch. Also, the OEM air filter that came factory in my Dodge Cummins was later changed because Mopar agreed that it was starving the engine for air. Mopar then later changed their air filter to a deep pleated filter. So the name Mopar doesn’t always mean it’s the best product. Sufficient? Yes. The best? Not always.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 7:53 pm

Smetna wrote:

Because the engineers do their quality and durability tests using Mopar stuff. ...

I'm sticking with OEM

uuummhh - I don't know that I'd go that far. Yes engineers have quality and durability tests - but they also have design targets - typically on auto's it's 100,000 miles - if it lasts longer it's an extra -but they're only targeting 100K, also after the first design guys finish - you then have the 'value engineering' guys - typically accounting types with no real knowledge of mechanics - but lots of spreadsheets with cost/profits.......their 'value' is not the consumers 'value'.

so if in doubt - OEM is a safe bet - but as you research and find data - real data - there are non-OEM improvements out there - don't go on one person's say - but watch and evaluate - see who's really driving/wheeling and always look for both sides of the issue especially negative feedback - most people won't admit they made a mistake - so it is a big deal when someone says they're wrong.....

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 9:03 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

but as you research and find data - real data - there are non-OEM improvements out there - don't go on one person's say - but watch and evaluate - see who's really driving/wheeling and always look for both sides of the issue especially negative feedback - most people won't admit they made a mistake - so it is a big deal when someone says they're wrong.....

It reminds me of this quote: "A smart man learns from his mistakes, but a WISE man learns from the mistakes of others".

SavageUrge · **Posted:** Mon May 21, 2012 9:36 pm

Mobil 1 synthetic since the day Jeep was new paired with either the Mobil 1 filters or Purolator Pure One. At 141K+ and she still purrs like a kitten!

audiboy86 · **Posted:** Wed May 23, 2012 7:06 pm

Royal purple and wix filter here so nice and quiet and smooth running.

mk38tech · **Joined:** Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:25 pm **Posts:** 72

Smetna wrote:

Castrol Edge Synthetic w/ Wix filter
OCI - 5k miles

hows this working for you? im about to drop pan throw away and put this new mag hytec on. only doing it now cause of time restraints and tired of reading reviews on synthetic atf+4. i figure a semi synthetic would be better off in this small transmission but then again, even the guys at suncoast converters told me when they get done with my 8 grand transmission for the cummins, they wont even think about using synthetic in it.

hooperswish · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:01 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

For $25+ for each they want for those amsoil filters I'll pay $4 for a filter(Napa Gold/WIX after my discount) that filters 0.0001 microns less sized particles.I'm all about quality and willing to pay for it but $25+ for one filter is just stupid when it get's changed every 2-3 months not to mention those dang filters cost more then the oil I use.

Napa gold is good enough for me as well. And if you are really anal, there is the new Napa platinum, which will last a year with extended change oils i.e. mobil one extended performance. I just use Mobil 1, napa gold, change 2X per year.
http://www.napafilters.com/filters/oil- ... ilter-oil/

Going Synthetic....... Maybe.....

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