Need some help, CRD's acting retarded now!!!!!!

dennhop · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:30 am

Ok, so I did the timing belt, waterpump, and pulleys about 3k miles ago. At the time I did it, I buttoned everything up, and took it out, and it seemed good to me-then my wife had to leave, so a day later, she takes off, and that's when all the problems became noticeable-disclaimer, it wasn't her fault, I just couldn't do anything about it, and immediately after the timing belt was done, and I took it for a test drive, it seemed to be good.

So, while she was on vacation, she complained of a lack of power, and extra smoke. I figured, oh well, one of the turbo/intercooler hoses was bad, and there was nothing I could do anyway, until she got back. None of her family would have known what to do with it anyways.
She gets back the other day, and I take it out for a test drive, and it's running like brown stinkies. I hit the gas, and it feels to me like the turbo's not spooling at all, and I can see a cloud of black smoke out the tailpipe that is pouring out throughout the whole rpm revolution from 30-65 mph.
Ok, so I checked the hoses, and didn't see any cuts, cracks or holes. Then, I start the jeep up and let it run for a few minutes, while I try to pull the CEL codes. I find out my scanner/reader doesn't go up to 06, so I can't pull them at home. I shut the jeep off and run inside to grab my wallet. COme back out, and the Jeep won't start. It cranked, but wouldn't fire. I essentially had to try about 5 times, and then with the gas pedal to the floor, it finally caught, and stayed running.
Get to advanced, only to remember that their scanners probably wouldn't work either. Tried it anyway, no joy. So now I've got a CEL that I can't pull the code for, a CRD that starts when it wants too. (oh, and when I started it up at Advanced to go home, I had to have one foot on the gas, and one foot on the brake to keep the engine running in park...once I shifted, and got into drive, it ran ok.)

I'm wondering if my initial worry of a boost leak was unfounded, and somehow the CRD jumped timing when I did the belt? THe only reason I don't think that is the case is that I marked the cam gears and the IP gear in several places, and when I had the belt on and tightened down, they all still lined up. Any way to pull codes on these things, or do I just need to buy a newer scanner/codereader? Also, I'm at a loss now, but I need to get this figured out fast-I can't afford to have my wife stranded somewhere out in town because of a problem I can't figure out. Also, as far as I know, there's absolutely no reputable Jeep dealership anywhere nearby, so that's completely out of the question, as well as the fact that I don't have the money to pay a dealership in the first place.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:55 am

Without the codes, it will be hard to tell for sure. I am surprised that they can't pull the codes. I can do it with my phone and Torque software.

dennhop · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:46 pm

On their code reader, there was no option for the 2.8-only the 3.7 gas motor.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:52 pm

Just need a basic code reader to read codes. It sounds like their code reader is moron proof. Try another place. Get the codes. The. Look them up and we can be more help.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

dennhop · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:16 pm

ChooChooman74 wrote:

Just need a basic code reader to read codes. It sounds like their code reader is moron proof. Try another place. Get the codes. The. Look them up and we can be more help.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I'll let that one slide for now.

A basic code reader also doesn't seem to function, as I went ahead and tried to run the codes under the universal setting, for the Liberty, since when I was setting up the vehicle in the scanner, I went 06, Jeep, Liberty, and then the only option was 3.7-which isn't going to be close to the same as the 2.8 CRD. Unfortunantly, my personal scanner is an older one, and won't go up to 2006 models. I can try to see if Autozone has a different scanner, but I"m not sure theirs is going to be much different. Aside from all that, it seems after researching, that the 06's had trouble getting codes pulled regardless. Anyone know which brand scanners typically worked to pull codes with?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:21 pm

If you have the OEM intercooler hoses with woven mesh covering did you physically remove them from the vehicle; remove the mesh covering; and then inspect them for tears/holes/mushy spots? I ask because they cannot be inspected on the vehicle; while doing so check airbox turbo hose for tear on bottom just in front of turbo. Also have you checked the turbo actuator and boost solenoid for proper function? All these items can cause low power and lots of smoke; not so sure about the hard starting.

dennhop · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:29 pm

Was about to run out, and noticed that as I started the Jeep (which it started just fine this time, after sitting for several hours) the CEL was off. I had just plugged the MAF sensor back in; I figured if I couldn't pull codes somehow, I could at least verify if there was a different code as well as the MAF sensor code, or not. Apparently I'm not throwing any other codes.

I have not yet pulled off the hoses, but from the feel of them right now, they are extremely soft, and oily from the outside. That being said, I just ordered a new set of Samco hoses today, so I should get them in sometime next week.

I have not yet checked the other things, but I'll do that later today/tomorrow, when it's not 800 degrees inside my garage.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:01 pm

You can pick up the timing 'pins' on eBay fairly inexpensively. You may even be able to rent just the cam pins from GDE; they don't have the crank one.

Point being - fairly inexpensive to get the pins and confirm that the crank and cams are still exactly aligned - you don't have to disassemble anything to perform the check... though turning over the crank to get the engine at 90ATDC will be a little more challenging.

If you didn't use the pins during the TB change - the odds increase significantly of the timing being off a tooth or so, and I know there isn't much room for error.

Alternatively, lack of boost causes smoke and loss of power. Check to see that the plugs that screw into the access holes in the intake haven't popped out (some have had problems with them being stripped). Check anything else you disconnected - I had one of the CAC hose clamps pop off afterwards. It just needed a bit more torque on the clamp..

Last thought - air in fuel. Confirm that your filter is fresh, bleed the filter head, pump it up and confirm it's not leaking as best you can. It's notoriously difficult to tell as the air tends to enter when the engine's running, since the CP3 bolted to the engine pulls fuel through the filter with such a vacuum that it sucks air at any point that isn't really well sealed - the joints just outside the fuel tank, and the filter head itself, seem almost impossible to completely secure with the stock fittings. Best cure: in tank or near tank fuel pump. Did mine @ 30k and never looked back - it's kissing 160k miles now.

Mark

dennhop · **Posted:** Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:34 pm

msilbernagel wrote:

You can pick up the timing 'pins' on eBay fairly inexpensively. You may even be able to rent just the cam pins from GDE; they don't have the crank one.

Point being - fairly inexpensive to get the pins and confirm that the crank and cams are still exactly aligned - you don't have to disassemble anything to perform the check... though turning over the crank to get the engine at 90ATDC will be a little more challenging.

If you didn't use the pins during the TB change - the odds increase significantly of the timing being off a tooth or so, and I know there isn't much room for error.

Alternatively, lack of boost causes smoke and loss of power. Check to see that the plugs that screw into the access holes in the intake haven't popped out (some have had problems with them being stripped). Check anything else you disconnected - I had one of the CAC hose clamps pop off afterwards. It just needed a bit more torque on the clamp..

Last thought - air in fuel. Confirm that your filter is fresh, bleed the filter head, pump it up and confirm it's not leaking as best you can. It's notoriously difficult to tell as the air tends to enter when the engine's running, since the CP3 bolted to the engine pulls fuel through the filter with such a vacuum that it sucks air at any point that isn't really well sealed - the joints just outside the fuel tank, and the filter head itself, seem almost impossible to completely secure with the stock fittings. Best cure: in tank or near tank fuel pump. Did mine @ 30k and never looked back - it's kissing 160k miles now.

Mark

I'll check both those plugs today, and see what they look like. I did use the timing pins when I did the job, just not the crank timing pin, but I did mark the crank before I took the belt off. I had the intake and exhaust pins in, as well as the cam gears locked together, with a universal locking tool. I checked the CAC hoses and clamps, and they were all tight, just haven't pulled them to check the condition of the hoses.
As far as air in the fuel, I have noticed that I continously have to pump the filterhead, but it's the upgraded one-I thought there weren't any issues with those? With these CP3's, I haven't checked, but is it the same CP3 that is on the the larger diesels, ie, dmax, powerstroke, and cummins? If it is, then I may start playing around with the lift pump, and see what I got going on. What's the recommended PSI of fuel pressure to the CP3 in these, does anyone know?

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:35 am

I think the CP3's are similar but not identical - for example the intermediate pressure is a little lower - but essentially the same.

They seem happy if you can keep the pressure well under 20psi, 10 or less is probably best. Since they work at a vacuum, just keeping it at zero or better is more than sufficient. What complicates it a little is that as the filter begins to clog (normal), the pressure required to maintain positive pressure increases - so the 8-10psi helps give you a little headroom to accommodate tired filters and cold mornings.

Mark

jkbkwarner · **Posted:** Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:04 am

... As far as air in the fuel, I have noticed that I continously have to pump the filterhead, but it's the upgraded one-I thought there weren't any issues with those? With these CP3's, I haven't checked, but is it the same CP3 that is on the the larger diesels, ie, dmax, powerstroke, and cummins? If it is, then I may start playing around with the lift pump, and see what I got going on. What's the recommended PSI of fuel pressure to the CP3 in these, does anyone know?[/quote]

After replacing my fuel filter head, I was still getting an air leak and having to bleed it twice a day, but at least there was less, so it wasn't all for not

. So, what fixed my air leak was replacing the fuel hose between the tank and the metal lines. There are plastic clips that "secure" the hose on both the metal lines and the plastic nipples on the fuel tank. If/when you replace those lines, use a high quality hose, that won't collapse on vacuum :banghead:

dennhop · **Posted:** Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:19 pm

Ok, so now I really need some help....
I bought a scangauge from Autozone today, to see if I could pull codes. After playing with it for quite some time, I finally got it working. The weird part about it was that the settings I put it on to get it working weren't listed in the manual...if anyone's interested, let me know, and I'll go back out later, and write down the steps to make it work.
Anyways, back to the ugly part. I pulled 4 codes off the Liberty-
P0101 MAF drift detect
P0073 Ambient Temperature Sensor
P0069 MAP Drift Detection
P0102 MAF Unplugged.

I'm not worried about the last one, as my MAF sensor has been unplugged since I got the Jeep. P0073, I'm willing to bet that when I did the timing belt, and pulled everything off, I may have left something disconnected up front, so I'll go back and check that out when it cools off. P0069, I'll clean out the MAP sensor again, after I replace the hoses...hopefully, that will take care of that problem.

The one that concerns me, is P0101, MAF drift detect. (I was on the phone with Keith, at GDE, when I got the codes). He informed me that he's seen several vehicles so far, that threw these codes, due to the rocker arms wearing down. That means a good chunk of money, and time into this repair...not good. That being said, is there any way anyone knows to quickly check this, or do I just need to pull everything apart anyway, and may as well try to find new rocker arms? If I do need new ones, anyone know where to buy them at? Money's not exactly falling off a tree around here for me, if ya know what I mean! :banghead:

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:31 pm

dennhop wrote:

P0073 Ambient Temperature Sensor

Behind the grill, just drivers side from center, is the Temp Sensor. I had to move mine when I put in my Tranny Cooler.

dennhop · **Posted:** Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:07 pm

After clearing all codes, the only one i have that keeps coming back right now is MAF unplugged....ill keep an eye on it and see what happens.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:28 pm

dennhop wrote:

Ok, so now I really need some help....
I bought a scangauge from Autozone today, to see if I could pull codes. After playing with it for quite some time, I finally got it working. The weird part about it was that the settings I put it on to get it working weren't listed in the manual...if anyone's interested, let me know, and I'll go back out later, and write down the steps to make it work.
Anyways, back to the ugly part. I pulled 4 codes off the Liberty-
P0101 MAF drift detect
P0073 Ambient Temperature Sensor
P0069 MAP Drift Detection
P0102 MAF Unplugged.

I'm not worried about the last one, as my MAF sensor has been unplugged since I got the Jeep. P0073, I'm willing to bet that when I did the timing belt, and pulled everything off, I may have left something disconnected up front, so I'll go back and check that out when it cools off. P0069, I'll clean out the MAP sensor again, after I replace the hoses...hopefully, that will take care of that problem.

The one that concerns me, is P0101, MAF drift detect. (I was on the phone with Keith, at GDE, when I got the codes). He informed me that he's seen several vehicles so far, that threw these codes, due to the rocker arms wearing down. That means a good chunk of money, and time into this repair...not good. That being said, is there any way anyone knows to quickly check this, or do I just need to pull everything apart anyway, and may as well try to find new rocker arms? If I do need new ones, anyone know where to buy them at? Money's not exactly falling off a tree around here for me, if ya know what I mean! :banghead:

Rocker arm replacement info coming soon, I have a genuine VM source at less than half the dealer's SHOP rates for them.

I do think that these may ALL need rockers soon after 120k based on my current research and experiences.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

dennhop · **Posted:** Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:43 pm

Let me know...it seems that all the codes but my MAF unplugged have shut off, and havent returned yet, but i need to do about another hundred miles or so and see if they come back on. Also the samco hoses shod be on their way now.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:20 pm

geordi wrote:

I do think that these may ALL need rockers soon after 120k based on my current research and experiences.

What can be done to prevent this? More frequent oil changes? Oil brands? Filters? My buddy had 160K on his CRD running nothing but Rotella synthetic/Purolator Pure one filters since new. The only issue he had was when the local dealer screwed up the timing belt job (yes at 160K) 5 times, and had to replace the lifters and rockers several times. I knew of a few with over 200K with no issues, although I am hearing more and more having issues at lower mileages. I wonder what causes it. I would think, like any diesel, stop and go driving does the most damage. I do 100% highway driving. I start mine and let it idle before driving off. Sometimes longer than other times. This may or may not be a good idea. I also change my oil between 4-5K. I was using M1 0w40, but now use Rotella T6 synthetic, and usually a Pure One or a Napa platinum filter. I hope to have a long trouble free life. Note the keyword... "hope."

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:43 pm

MRausch82 wrote:

geordi wrote:

I do think that these may ALL need rockers soon after 120k based on my current research and experiences.

What can be done to prevent this? More frequent oil changes? Oil brands? Filters? My buddy had 160K on his CRD running nothing but Rotella synthetic/Purolator Pure one filters since new. The only issue he had was when the local dealer screwed up the timing belt job (yes at 160K) 5 times, and had to replace the lifters and rockers several times. I knew of a few with over 200K with no issues, although I am hearing more and more having issues at lower mileages. I wonder what causes it. I would think, like any diesel, stop and go driving does the most damage. I do 100% highway driving. I start mine and let it idle before driving off. Sometimes longer than other times. This may or may not be a good idea. I also change my oil between 4-5K. I was using M1 0w40, but now use Rotella T6 synthetic, and usually a Pure One or a Napa platinum filter. I hope to have a long trouble free life. Note the keyword... "hope."

Mike, I'm right there with you - I heard about others before me having issues, RacerTracer being one that suggested adding Rislone to the oil to help clean it out and keep it clean. Starting at 120k, I have been doing 3000 mile oil changes, the goal with that was to wash the system out and try to keep super clean oil in it... I'm at 134k right now, due for another oil change, and the engine is in LOTS of pieces waiting for the lifters and rockers.

I run either Rotella T6 or Mobil One Delvac (Same product as Turbo Diesel Truck) in 5w40 full synthetic, which I buy depends on which is on sale, and always a Mobil 1 M1-301 filter for a 7-quart oil change. I don't do as much stop-and-go driving, my house is 15 miles one-way from anywhere I might want to go, and they are 55mph roads right off the end of my driveway.

Your friend with the botched timing job may have dodged this bullet by having the rockers replaced from that job. I still don't know exactly why my engine is tapping on the top end, but I know it is NOT the injectors, NOT the valves, and NOT a combustion leak from bad reassembly or a bad head gasket. The only thing left are the rockers, as cleaning the lifters did exactly NOTHING to the sound. I moved the rockers around, specifically moving the ones from cyl #3 to cyl #1, and the result WAS that the noise seemed to move forward... But the computer did not reset the code for a misfire to confirm it. The set of lifters on the way will confirm my diagnosis no matter what.

Why do I think this happend, and what can be done about it? I suspect it is a phenomenally BAD design by VM, that the lifters clog up with crud because they have an oil inlet port, but no oil passage between the lower and upper piston of the lifter... And only machine tolerance to allow the oil to pass to the top where it can eject. This then could cause the lifter to resist compressing, forcing added undue wear onto the bearing inside the roller. This is only a theory, I inspected (but did not wash) the rockers, and didn't find anything special about them. Once I open the top again, I will wash each rocker in diesel fuel and fully inspect each one in turn. ONE of these dang things has to be different than the rest. I'm hoping to find a stuck roller or a grinding bearing, but I didn't find that before...

So will this happen to anyone else? It seems like a good possibility - I've been maniacal about maintenance on my CRD, and I don't flog it anywhere near what I did to my Jetta TDI... I got 150k out of the Jetta before a fuel pump seal became my major issue... I haven't had 60k miles continuously pass under the CRD without a major teardown due to a design flaw.

dennhop · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:58 am

Update...drove the Jeep to work today, and by the time I got to work, about a 40 minute drive, the Jeep had stalled on me at least 6 times. When I got here, I checked the fuel filter head...plunger was soft, and pushed in easily. I pumped it about a dozen times, till I could barely move it, and tried to restart. Restarted just fine. Every time it died on my while driving, it would take forever to restart. SO, that tells me it's time for me to replace the lines coming from the tank to the filter head.

jkbkwarner · **Posted:** Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:15 am

dennhop wrote:

Update...drove the Jeep to work today, and by the time I got to work, about a 40 minute drive, the Jeep had stalled on me at least 6 times. When I got here, I checked the fuel filter head...plunger was soft, and pushed in easily. I pumped it about a dozen times, till I could barely move it, and tried to restart. Restarted just fine. Every time it died on my while driving, it would take forever to restart. SO, that tells me it's time for me to replace the lines coming from the tank to the filter head.

I'd start with the soft hose(s) between the fuel tank and the metal lines just past (over) the rear differential. That is what solved it for me. :BANANA:

Need some help, CRD's acting retarded now!!!!!!

Who is online