Lets talk about oil (again)

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:33 pm

I have used either Mobil 1 Delvac 1 (same product sold as TDT) or Shell Rotella T6 based on whichever was available and / or on sale at the time. Both are fully synthetic, and 5w40. Above freezing, any multi-weight oil should be functioning at the 40 weight spec, so they should be functionally the same flow spec.

This has been consistent from 30k miles, but I have not seen what other members have where the oil "remains clean" for hundreds or even thousands of miles. With the last 12k miles, I have switched to a 3000 mile change from the 6000 I was running before, and added a quart of Rislone with each change to attempt to prevent the lifters from gumming up.

As the lifters do appear to be in a clean and working status (while the bottom end is not quite in the same condition) I cannot say whether the Rislone helped, hurt, or did nothing at all.

I am not the only member running TDT or Rotella, so I do not fault the oil in the engine failures that I have had. To be sure, I cannot point at any direct cause for this second failure other than a significant design flaw.

I also ran Delvac 1 (it was not available as TDT at that time) in my Jetta TDI, for 150k miles of hard driving and long idle times, and the compression test showed that the 4 cylinders were within 10 psi of each other, and right up near 500 psi which is at the upper end of the "new" specification in the VW book. I have no experience with Amsoil products to comment about their efficiency.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

SLS · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:12 pm

kjjet wrote:

Here we go again. I use only M1 0w-40 every 7000 miles. Sorry i follow the book due to it was under warranty untill 80,000 now near 100.000. I feel the thinner recomended oil viscosity will prevent deposits, expecally as the engine gets older. I use no addidives and do not use oil flushes. Some may not agree but thats what i do.

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act
Don't let dealers scare you off with the old "voids your warranty" BS.
When a warranty is provided, full or limited, Magnuson-Moss does prohibit “tie-in” sales, which means the warrantor cannot require use of its branded parts as a condition of the warranty unless it provides the parts free of charge. With out getting to technical, A manufacturer may resort to this type of warranty threat to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in the minds of consumers, rather than to compete on the basis of quality and price ("FUD marketing").
In legal terms, this type of ploy is referred to as a "tie-in sales provision." In general, such provisions are illegal.

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:54 pm

Here's 2 links to Mobil 1 Europe and what is specified for the European market:

http://www.mobil1.co.uk/synthetic-engin ... 0w-40.aspx

http://www.mobil1.co.uk/synthetic-engin ... 0w-40.aspx

Interesting that 0w 40 is the only specified oil.

SLS · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:17 pm

It is said that 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup. If we are interested in engine longevity then we should concentrate our attention at reducing engine wear at startup.
According to "the Oil Guy" http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
"The greatest confusion is because of the way motor oils are labeled. It is an old system and is confusing to many people. I (Bob is the oil guy) knows the person is confused when they say that a 0W-30 oil is too thin for their engine because the old manual says to use 10W-30. This is wrong."

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:30 am

SLS wrote:

... knows the person is confused when they say that a 0W-30 oil is too thin for their engine because the old manual says to use 10W-30. This is wrong."

Its good that you mention this.
About 20 years ago when I was a teenager working at an auto parts store, oil came in three flavors:
10w-30, 10w-40, and 20w-50.
Then I started stocking the shelves with 5w-30 and asked why do we now have 5w-30?
The answer I got was that some of the newer GM cars a specifying 5w-30, but its mainly only for
those who operate in colder climates.
Now we have 0w-20, 0w-30, 0w-40, 5w-20, and 5w-40.
Is "energy conserving" the only reason for these thinner oils?
Are these newer oils much more advanced than 20 years ago?
Are manufacturers engineering their engines with tighter tolerances that require thinner oils?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:09 am

The issue in my mind when choosing between 5w diesel and 0w gas lube oils is largely what sort of additives are used to reduce acidification and resist the effects of soot. My understanding is that the 0w multi viscosity gasoline oils do not have the additive package that the CJ rated 5w oils have got. If you change the oil every 3 or 4 k miles then lack of diesel additives may not make much difference. I like to run my oil longer, and expect the additive package will reduce sludge and de-esterification.

OTOH, if the oil can't get to the bearings, you have a problem, QED.

The thing is, we won't really know the answer until most of the fleet has run 2 or3 hundred k miles......

Quiksilver · **Posted:** Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:13 pm

In South Africa, with the warmer climates and generally lower quality diesel fuel the boys on the forums swear by Caltex Delo 400.

That's across all of the manufacturers diesels, including MB, VW, Toyota, Izuzu, etc etc

http://www.caltex.com.au/productsandser ... px?ID=1639

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:03 pm

Diesels all operate on the same compression-ignition principle, but the engineering from engine to engine varies considerably. One oil does not fit all. What works optimally for one engine may not work well for another, even though they are both diesels.

One example I am familiar with is the VW D24 series engines, which are known to have lubrication and resulting wear and early failure issues, but when properly serviced especially with modern synthetic lubes, and properly warmed up and cooled off, can easily perform for several hundred thousand miles.

We are still in the process of discovering the quirks of the VM Motori 2.8 CRD, but after reading a number of various threads here and talking with Geordi, who could write a book about engine failures, I see the following potential lubrication related design issues:

-The oil pump may not deliver sufficient volume/pressure with Chrysler specified lubricants (low pressure when engine is fully warmed;
-The oil galleries and passages may be undersized with specified lubricants (very high cold oil pressure using 5W-40 );
-The bearing tolerances are tight and the bearing pressures are high; both result in an engine unforgiving of any lubrication problems.
- the turbo lubrication system has problems, and insufficient consideration of the consequences of turbo failure was done.
-The factory EGR system introduces significant additional soot loading into an engine not designed for it.

There are other design issues with this engine and vehicle, like the HG failure issue, the TC problem, and the turbo design itself, but with respect to lube oil, several things seem clear.
1) This engine wants to be warm;
2) any impedance to proper lubrication, even minor soot buildup, has the potential to cause a big problem; minor galling could cause progressively more rapid bearing wear and rapid engine failure. 3) Turbo failure, in particular, with this engine is a virtual guarantee of catastrophic engine failure unless correctly and rapidly responded to, and correctly repaired.

WRT the CRD KJ, It would seem wise to heed the advise in the Noob Guide and make sure that you thoroughly warm the engine before hard driving, allow the turbo to cool down afterwards, and to regularly change oil and filters using top-grade lubricating oil. I am giving serious thought to using 0w-40 synthetic for cold weather and switching to 5W for summertime use, or perhaps even going to 0W year-round, and shortening the service interval significantly to prevent deterioration of the oil. I am also considering using the block heater year-round. These are simple things that may have significant long-term advantages.

It is also worth noting that introduction of engine coolant into the lube oil is likely to be a particular problem with this engine. Anyone with unexplained coolant loss had best keep an extremely close eye on their lube oil to be certain that it's not going into the crankcase.

Longer term, now that I have the ability to experiment with a spare block, I may look into improving the lubrication system (Reaming oil galleries, bigger oil pump, secondary filtration/pressurization, etc.) to improve lubrication performance and increase longevity. I may also look into turbo lubrication and see if any ideas present themselves. SS head gasket and ARP studs are definitely going to be part of the upgrade package.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:11 pm

racertracer wrote:

Here's 2 links to Mobil 1 Europe and what is specified for the European market:

http://www.mobil1.co.uk/synthetic-engin ... 0w-40.aspx

http://www.mobil1.co.uk/synthetic-engin ... 0w-40.aspx

Interesting that 0w 40 is the only specified oil.

Colder climate? I would buy the OW-40 TD oil if it were available here; is it?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:03 pm

flash7210 wrote:

<snip>
Now we have 0w-20, 0w-30, 0w-40, 5w-20, and 5w-40.
Is "energy conserving" the only reason for these thinner oils?

No, but it is likely the biggest one. US EPA mileage ratings are warping vehicle design in directions it would not otherwise go, and much is being sacrificed for fuel economy.

flash7210 wrote:

Are these newer oils much more advanced than 20 years ago?

Yes, I think so. It is now routine for engines to run 200k miles plus with reasonable maintenance.

flash7210 wrote:

Are manufacturers engineering their engines with tighter tolerances that require thinner oils?

Yes, and machining to finer finishes, too. This allows much more useful power at the wheels, but the consequences of failures become more severe.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:52 am

I agree none of us can say what oil is the best. That is why the Author of this post (flash7210) Asked: Rather that ask about what oil anybody SHOULD be using in their CRD, I want to know what oil you ARE using in your CRD and WHY?

A great question. So people can determine what they think may be best for their engine.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:03 am

See my post titled" "Who has over 100K? Over 200K? What oil/filters/schedule?" I did this to try to figure out who has the most miles and on which oil and filter. Seems a lot are still using Mobil 1 0w40 with higher mileage, and so far no reported troubles using that and the stock filter size. I also personally know of one person, a friend of mine, who has over 165K on his CRD using Rotella T6 5w40 synthetic (RT6) and Purolator Pure One filters and (gasp!) everyone's dreaded, and deemed to "ruin your engine" K&N air filter. No problems for him either. He does not use any abnormal amount of oil, and has almost no blowby, about the same as my 80K CRD. My determination that either 0w40 M1 or 5w40 RT6 and Pure One filters still stands true it seems. The troubles I have been hearing, mainly from folks offlist, etc, have come from folks using filters not designed for the CRD engine. Can't really say why, just seems to be the trend. My :2cents:

? Stick with whatever the catalog says in terms of filters. Stick with either 0w40 or 5w40 oils, and allow some time for it to warm up before beating on it, and of course cool down the turbo before shutting it off. Lastly, replace... or CLEAN (if you have a K&N) the air filter often.

I have RT6 5w40 in mine, although, I am going back to the 0w40 at the next oil change in 250 miles. I have run RT6 since 73K, and now at 80K. I personally like the 0w40, but that is a matter of preference. I liked what I saw in other diesel engines I have opened up, repaired, rebuilt, etc. using this. If I can, I am hoping to do a used oil analysis (UOA) of the RT6 and the M1 0w40. Can't promise anything, however.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:24 pm

What was it about the 0w-40 that you like better than the Rotella t6 5w-40? I'm actually considering going back to the Mobil 1 0w-40 over the winter time.

Jim

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:36 pm

kissfan79 wrote:

What was it about the 0w-40 that you like better than the Rotella t6 5w-40? I'm actually considering going back to the Mobil 1 0w-40 over the winter time.

Jim

Well, the engines that I have opened up with the 0w40 seem to stay cleaner. (diesels but not the jeep CRD, have not opened one yet) vs the RT6 for some reason. I also like the 0w for cold starts and the turbo and lubrication system at startup. It's personal preference I suppose.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:18 pm

I have had the top of my CRD engine apart. It was spotless. No buildup of anything. Nearly 100k. Just wipe the Mobil 1 0w-40 off with your finger. Im sticking with it!

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:37 pm

kjjet wrote:

I have had the top of my CRD engine apart. It was spotless. No buildup of anything. Nearly 100k. Just wipe the Mobil 1 0w-40 off with your finger. Im sticking with it!

What is your oil change interval? Filter type?

METCRD · **Posted:** Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:57 pm

I have been using Rotella T6 since new (20,000) 45,000 now, along with Wix filters. I am not sure of my opinion on the 0w-40, other than I know I do not want to buy it from the dealer.

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:12 pm

I have been in communication with Mobil oil regarding questions I had on the 0w-40 and our Liberty CRD and here is the responses.

My questions are in red his answers are in blue.

*Question:*
I want to know if the Mobil 1 0w-40 turbo diesel european market is the same formulation as the 0w40 mobil 1 in the US market?
I own a 2005 jeep liberty diesel.

No, they do have different formulations in Europe.
-MJ

From: Mobilproducts
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: #398042-US(English) - Lubricants: for Cars and Trucks

Is there a better oil to use for my 2005 Jeep turbo diesel than the one specified which is 0W-40?

No, that would be the best quality oil for your engine.
-MJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Mobilproducts
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: #398042-US(English) - Lubricants: for Cars and Trucks

Mj,

What about the Mobil1 5w-40 turbo diesel truck..... what is your opinion about using that formulation with my 2005 Jeep Liberty diesel?

No, it would not meet your MS 10725 requirement.

-MJ

--
Thank you for choosing ExxonMobil products.
If you need further assistance, please contact ExxonMobil at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL

-MJ

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:38 pm

What exactly does MS 10725 mean?

I know it's a Chrysler spec but other than that, what does it mean?

So far, the the only description of MS 10725 that I have found states this:
For countries that use the ACEA European Oil Categories for Service Fill Oils, use the recommended engine oil that meets the requirements of ACEA C3, and approved to MB 229.31
or MB 229.51 only. Refer to your engine oil filler cap for correct SAE grade.

Does this mean that the Chrysler spec mirrors MB 229.31/51?

Also, ACEA C3 is for engines with a DPF.
Our engines do not have a DPF.

kjjet · **Posted:** Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:09 pm

racertracer....Thats the same M1 info I got. 0w-40 only.

Lets talk about oil (again)

Who is online