Lets talk about oil (again)

TJ2 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:24 am

I'm using RT6 with M1 301 filter. Changed at 6-8k miles. No UOA. . . will next time. I've put 25k on this engine. I would do a UOA every 5k if I could do it over.

I'm going with Mobil 1 0/40 next change. Couldn't find MS 10725. Anybody really know what that says? BTW, RT6 rated ACEA E9 is diesel particulate filter specific. M1 0/40 says not to use with DPF.

Ya pays your money and ya takes yer chances. (I spent probably 40 hours research coming to that profound conclusion:)

kjjet · **Posted:** Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:14 pm

WISE CHOICE!! I have found M1 0w-40 at Walmart to be the lowest cost $6.97 a QT. Also found Advance Auto Parts will price match.

FYI...Looks like it's time for a belt change. Do it before 100k.

Greasey Bob · **Joined:** Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:34 am **Posts:** 228

my walmart now carries M1 and i might get that instead of the t6. You have to think that the T6 for $6 a quarts vs the M1 for $9 the T6 was OK to use. But for $7 vs $6 Iam going to get the M1. I am still going to change it every other month. Or about 4-6k miles. My CDI mercedes uses the same stuff I should buy it buy the case, if I could only get a discount for that.

I am now at 140k miles I started burning WVO at about 73k miles.

kissfan79 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:35 pm

My thing is.....I (along with some of the others) would like to know what exactly the MS 10725 standard says and what an oil has to have or do to meet that standard. Other than the viscosity....what is it about the 0w-40 that meets the MS 10725 standard that the TDT 5w-40 does not? I also wonder if Mobil 1 is saying that the 0w-40 is the best oil for the CRD over the TDT 5w-40 simply because that it meets that standard and the TDT 5w-40 does not but may be a better oil for it to cover their own arses. I'm actually considering switching back to the 0w-40 for the winter months to get that extra cold flow even though it doesn't get truly cold here in NC.

Jim

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:29 pm

If it is not below freezing, they are ALL THE SAME at 40 weight.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:52 pm

I'm not sure of the benefit of continued discussion focusing on what a 6 or 7 year old FSM/Owner's Manual recommends with respect to oil specifications in today's oil market. With that in mind I'll redo and suppliment, below, my post at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72256&p=759224&hilit=MS+10725.#p759224

The 05/06 DCJ FSM says "API categories CF or better and the requirements of DaimlerChrysler Material Standard MS-10725" and the Owner's Manual specifically speaks to SAE 0W-40 Mobil 1.
1. I cannot find and I don't know that anyone has ever found a copy of the MS-10725 or, if it's been found, 1) a translation to API or 2) a list of oils available TODAY that meet the standard. For what it's worth 0W-40 Mobil 1 does not appear to meet MS-10725 or at least it's not listed as meeting it on the Mobil 1 site (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... W-40.aspx#) although it is listed as meeting the long outdated CF standard, see below.
2. API ratings change over time and CF is a 1994 standard that's been out-of-date since 1998 when it appears to have been superseded by CH-4 (see http://www.api.org/certifications/engin ... 120210.pdf). I have no clue why that dated standard was listed in 05/06 manuals other than the obvious copy/paste problem. In fact IMHO what those manuals should have listed when published was CI-4. Based on today's API ratings CH-4 to CJ-4 oils are ok so long as you are using fuel with sulphur content below 500ppm. In the context of today please note that CI-4 is for engines running "higher" sulpher fuel than currently used in the US.
3. As to oil "weight" see http://www.blackstone-labs.com/oil-viscosity.php for a discussion of what multi-weight oil ratings actually mean. The take home message is that the North American and export market CRD Owner's Manuals contain different oil weight/viscosity recommendations although as I understand it the primary difference is the "lower" number (e.g. they all recommend XXW-40). I imagine the difference has to do with DCJ's guesstimate as to ambient operating temperature range in the particular market which I find a bit of a hoot as the continental US climate can range from 120F in Tempe, AZ to -40F or worse in northern states (I've excluded Alaska).

IMHO, while the oil weight/viscosity certainly matters it matters more that you keep the oil soot content down by some combination of GDE tune and relatively frequent oil change intervals. I know some have done it but I, personally, think oil change intervals upwards of 8-12k miles are just asking for trouble and I won't go past 6,000 miles. Sorry but in the real universe oil is cheap and turbos/rockers/blocks are expensive. The same pretty much goes for using synthetic vs staight dino given the tiny oil passages in our engines. NOTE geordi and others have noted that some of the CRD oil passages are really really small so exceeding XXW-40 is probably a very bad idea and because of oil passage size I'm not at all sure there is any merit in comparing our oil requirements to those of a TDI as a lot of the discussions do.

So my :2cents:

use a name brand good quality appropriate API (CH/CI/CJ-4) diesel rated synthetic oil with a change interval of ca. 6,000 miles and a weight consistent with the climate at your specific location. 0W-40 is probably fine for the colder climates, 5W-40 would be a good middle ground, and 10-15W-40 to the extent it's available would be ok for really hot areas. Use the block heater if at all possible for cold starts when the ambient temp is below say 20F (certainly below 10F) and when the weather is cold avoid long idling (it won't warm the engine up much and certainly won't warm up other drive line fluids) but also avoid higher speeds (above say 35mph) until the temp gauge shows some signs of life.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:31 pm

From my research, I believe our engines should be using a CI rated oil and not a CJ rated oil. CJ rated oils will more like you induce more wear into our engines.

http://www.wellworthproducts.com/articles/oildiesel.asp

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:37 am

Looking at a bottle of Mobil1 TDT oil it's rated.
CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4 and ACEA E7/E5 :5SHOTS:

I understand the later oil requirements are for handling higher soot levels of modern EGR equipted diesel engines and have reduced ZINK levels to protect CAT's.
It claims to be good for just about any diesel on the planet including MACK, DETROIT, NAVISTAR, DURAMAX, CUMMINS, POWER STROKE and CAT and goes on to say SUITABLE FOR USE WITH VIRTUALLY ALL DIESEL POWERED EQUIPTMENT OF US, EUROPEAN AND JAPANESE equiptment both light and heavy-duty applications.
BUT other then the ACEA E7/E5 and API ratings there are no manufacturer required spec's given.
It does not claim it's suitable for any diesel powered automobiles that our VM would most likely fall under.

It obviously can't be all things for all engines so there has to be compromises for sure and zink and related addatives are being reduced that our engine seem to need.

Throw the EPA, LAWYERS and manufacturers into the mix and what we have available in one bottle of oil is most likely not really good for anything.

A better thread would be what so called "snake oil" addative is best to add to our reduced quality oils. Examples are
Rislone oil supplement with zink restores ZDDP Zink & Phosphorus levels.
http://www.rislone.com
Lubro-Moly friction reducer
http://www.liqui-moly.us/liquimoly/prod ... nt&land=US
And more.

kjjet · **Posted:** Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:05 pm

If a quality oil is changed on schedule with a good filter there should be no need for addatives and no MFG would recomend them.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:06 am

I started these threads a while ago to try to help folks out with oil debates:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71805

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71783

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:44 am

kjjet wrote:

should be no need for addatives and no MFG would recomend them.

There are two things wrong here. The first is SHOULD, and the second is all manufacturers seem to be interested in is getting past the warranty period.

Zink has been removed/lowered because the EPA now wants catalytic converters to last 100k miles :BANANA:

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:13 pm

Oil MFG's like Mobil do not want you adding anything. Long term you never know if it will help or damage your engine. Why take the chance?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:40 pm

Well of course they don't want to admit there oil is lacking :SOMBRERO:

Oil makers are saying the new oils they are required to make "SHOULD" be ok in older designed engines :juggle:

Long term the top end on our CRD's are not doing so well with worn out rockers and adjusters :furious:

With the higher level of soot in the oil then our engines were designed for
coupled with reduced lubrication in high stress areas like cam shaft lobes and lifters :dizzy:

Spells disaster :5SHOTS:

A blind man can see there is a lot going on with these engines that should not be :ALONE:

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:16 pm

If a quality oil is changed on schedule with a good filter there should no need for anything else.

Lets face it, this engine is not a good design. The worst Diesel sold in the last 20 years. GM version of a V8 diesel in the 80's was real bad. But the help of GDE stoping EGR and Provent's or CCV going overboard. The engine runs cleaner and should last alot longer.

Good luck to everyone that runs one!

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:14 pm

kjjet wrote:

If a quality oil is changed on schedule with a good filter there should no need for anything else.

Lets face it, this engine is not a good design. The worst Diesel sold in the last 20 years. GM version of a V8 diesel in the 80's was real bad. But the help of GDE stoping EGR and Provent's or CCV going overboard. The engine runs cleaner and should last alot longer.

Good luck to everyone that runs one!

The prototype for this motor, the 2.5 litre, was designed for LSD and not designed with EGR in mind. When the minor changes were made to accomodate the US EPA requirements, no real re-engineering was done to preclude the effects of a massive increase in soot load and the effects on oil acidity. Among other problems. It does solve the problem of providing diesel torque and efficiency in a compact SUV at a commercially salable price. I am looking at the potential benefits of adding supplemental filtration and/or supplemental oil pressurization, as well as possibly increasing the oil passage sizes and increasing flow from the stock oil pump.

It may well be that one thing that will help improve longevity is a zinc additive, but the problem with that is compatibility with various lube oils....

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:32 pm

'not a good design' you say... Has anyone ever told you that you have a gift for understatement?

I recently found the old rods and what was left of the rod bearings from my original engine. I don't know what the crank side might have looked like, but the rod has an oil passage in it and what I believe is a jet for the bottom of the piston. As such, it should have a fairly significant oil flow... Yet the passages are smaller than what I would have thought to use. At the same time, I'm not an engine designer... But I'm not sure the Italians really are either.

The oil passages and tolerances at the bottom of this engine truly don't show the capability to deal with any real soot loading in the oil. I think the real problem comes down to oil flow however. The stock pump just does not seem to move enough oil when the pressure in the main gallery is only 18psi at idle. I will admit, I don't know where the sensor is located on the gas Jeeps that I have owned (96 I-6 and 97 V8 grand cherokees) BUT... They both had an actual oil pressure gauge on the dash, and it reads around 45psi at all times. Slightly higher at cruise.

If there is a place where the pressure is not balanced against the smaller passages (Think about the turbo's oil flow restriction) then the pressure will naturally flow more to the easier path. Either ALL the passages have to be tiny (equalizing the pressure across all) or the flow has to be increased to maintain adequate flow to the smaller places by upping the overall system pressure. 18psi in the main gallery at idle tells me that somewhere in the system is a massive outlet for the pressure, which can starve the tiny places for oil flow... OR the stock pump is seriously undersized to the job.

Thinner oil is not the answer (and again - above freezing, they are ALL the same 40 weight) but the consequences of overheating the oil and stressing it is that it can actually THICKEN.... Making the problem the CRD has even worse! If the flow is not sufficient to keep cooler oil moving into the highest-stress places... Those places will thicken, further restricting the flow... And the cycle repeats until the engine puts a rod through the side from bearing failure.

TJ2 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:31 pm

The Aussies are not seeing the problems with these engines that I read about on this board. For that matter, neither am I.

Has anyone thought to run B20 year 'round for lubricity and in the off chance it might cut down on soot build up? Noticed Greasy Bob is at 140K using WVO.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:43 pm

If you have a GDE tune. Or completly removed the EGR system "like my CRD" soot should not be a issue any more.

Any other diesel engine is designed for 300k. The top ends are week and the botom? Well I would say it's better than the top but then ask geordi?

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:08 pm

FYI

No oil manufacturer will ever disagree with the automakers factory service manual.
to do so would open them up to a lawsuits for everyone with an engine problem.

technology has nothing to do with it, lawyers control the discussion.
anyone who can talk to customers - gets extensive legal briefs about what they are and are not allowed to say.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:33 pm

I agree lawers run everything and MFG's and CO's are told what to say. Also..additive CO's will not take responsiblity for any damage they may cause. They know you will never be able to prove their product caused anything to go bad. That's why their are shelves full of them at every autoparts store. They make millions.

Lets talk about oil (again)

Who is online