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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:46 am 
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Dave01 wrote:
yakers wrote:
An oil analysis or ultraviolet dye is a good way to go. Blackstone identified coolant in my oil as did the dye later despite two Jeep dealers saying I did not have a leak based on presure testing and sniffing the coolant resevior for exhaust.


Once you found out, did you replace the head gasket?


My tale of woe is a combination of embarassment and agony, hate to even talk about it. Ultimately the head was warped, none available and ended up with replacement long block for $9K, 7 months in the shop. Only thing that 'saved' me was a 'free' new loaner mini van which I put 7k miles on.


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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:45 am 
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At first, I experienced intermittent small amounts of coolant loss. Every few months the low coolant light would come on. I made nothing of it; I added a few cups of water in the expansion tank and moved along, but as time went on the low coolant light condition increased in occurrence. I just couldn't explain it and neither could the dealer.

I decided to change the thermostat since it had failed, to see if that made any difference but I stripped the threads in the block and it made the problem worse. The pressure was building up, the overflow tank was getting filled and there were leaks everywhere. I decided to replace all the spring clamps with screw clamps on the hoses but the leaks returned with a vengence.

I found out that even a small amount of coolant loss is not good, especially if the dye test doesn't point to an exterior coolant leak and the overflow bottle begins to show signs of coolant in it. It only points to a head gasket problem that will not go away and only gets worse.

Sorry to say, but if you are experiencing any of these symptoms, I would begin making plans for a HG repair job in the near future.

We are not alone, I have been told that aluminum heads installed in any diesel engine become weak over time if they are constantly being pushed to their limits. Proper coolant changes and system flushes, proper OCI, are a must and keeping the heavy foot off the little peddle is imperative.

Pushing this little diesel is not the way to go and I love to push it, I love the power it has and that race car feeling.

So finding ways to protect the engine form HG failure is on my mind and should be on all of ours, becasue we may be hearing more of this happeing as time goes on and we clock more miles.

Hence the reason why I like the ARP head studs idea or even re-torqueing the existing TTY studs during a TB change in case the've loosened, keeping the head locked down for longevity sake.

RTracer

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1982 Fiat 124 Spider Convertible. "Fiona"


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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:27 am 
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Just started getting low coolant warning.
Added a few ounces of coolant to bring it up to the line.
It started after I plugged in the block heater for the winter. Will keep an eye on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:42 am 
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Yakers, sorry to hear that story! I'll certainly do my best to avoid that worst case scenario.

RT, thanks for the writeup. My coolant loss and coolant in the expansion tank definitely match your symptoms, but as of now I'm not seeing pressure in the system. So, either my HG leak is extremely slight or I have a different problem. I'll watch closely, and until I can find something else I'm going to go on the assumption that I'm heading toward HG failure like you had.

It looks like a HG change isn't fun on these engines, but then again it's just a lot of labor vs. waiting until the head fails or warps beyond repair. From what I've seen on other diesels, ARP studs are a relatively cheap and very effective upgrade, I would definitely do that.

From a setup and performance standpoint, this package, once the GDE tunes are added, is just outstanding. Lots of power and torque for towing, good acceleration, excellent highway driving vehicle, very good fuel economy, very strong transmission. The engine itself needed a little bit of added engineering to match the capability, but hopefully we can do the fixes needed to get there!

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Dave01 wrote:
My coolant loss and coolant in the expansion tank definitely match your symptoms, but as of now I'm not seeing pressure in the system. So, either my HG leak is extremely slight or I have a different problem.


The only thing I can think of is that the pressure may be escaping into the cylinder not only into the reservoir. A combination of both.

Do you see white smoke out of your exhaust at first start up?

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:34 pm 
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yakers wrote:
<snip> Ultimately the head was warped, <snip>


That is a shame, and I am sorry you have had this problem. I have been told that the ARP studs will pull a warped head into conformance with the CI block, and given my experience with this CRD block I am willing to believe that. See the ARP stud thread for further information.
Link here- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:00 am 
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racertracer wrote:
Do you see white smoke out of your exhaust at first start up?

No, just normal vapor in the exhaust on cold mornings until it warms up a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:03 am 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
yakers wrote:
<snip> Ultimately the head was warped, <snip>


That is a shame, and I am sorry you have had this problem. I have been told that the ARP studs will pull a warped head into conformance with the CI block, and given my experience with this CRD block I am willing to believe that. See the ARP stud thread for further information.
Link here- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524

That surprises me. ARP studs won't stretch, but it takes a lot of thread torque to pull the head down and "un-warp" it. I'd really wonder if, even with the excellent quality studs, you wouldn't be prone to another gasket failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Dave01 wrote:
RT, thanks for the writeup. My coolant loss and coolant in the expansion tank definitely match your symptoms, but as of now I'm not seeing pressure in the system. So, either my HG leak is extremely slight or I have a different problem. I'll watch closely, and until I can find something else I'm going to go on the assumption that I'm heading toward HG failure like you had.

That is a good assumption. In the beginning I would lose coolant out the overflow but RT's test didn't show any pressure. I think in the beginning it would only push past the HG under high throttle but not at idle. As the HG leak got worse (hot exhaust gases continued to eat away at the HG) it would empty the reservoir in my wife's 12-mile drive to work. Keep an eye on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Dave01 wrote:
LMWatBullRun wrote:
yakers wrote:
<snip> Ultimately the head was warped, <snip>


That is a shame, and I am sorry you have had this problem. I have been told that the ARP studs will pull a warped head into conformance with the CI block, and given my experience with this CRD block I am willing to believe that. See the ARP stud thread for further information.
Link here- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524

That surprises me. ARP studs won't stretch, but it takes a lot of thread torque to pull the head down and "un-warp" it. I'd really wonder if, even with the excellent quality studs, you wouldn't be prone to another gasket failure.


No way to know for sure; I would think that a fresh head with a new HG would certainly be preferable.
But I do know that 140 FPT will crush-fit the glow plug holes, and you can go to 160 FPT on the studs before they yield. Read page 5 on the stud thread for the details.

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1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:43 pm 
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So that the glow plug holes aren't deformed and the glow plugs aren't crushed. I would think that the glow plugs would have to come out prior to clamping down of the ARP studs and a long bolt of the same size thread be temporarily installed in its place while the torqueing is going on. Then removed when the torqueing is completed and the threads chased before the glow plugs are replaced. :2cents:

I remember speaking with an ARP representative about what he thought of installing the ARP studs on an already leaky head gasket and he suggested that the HG be replaced, he mentioned that more often than not, those people who did not replace their leaky head gasket, did not solve the problem.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Deep Beryl Green, GDE Hot Tune, ARP studs. "Rocket"
1982 Fiat 124 Spider Convertible. "Fiona"


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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:54 am 
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racertracer wrote:
So that the glow plug holes aren't deformed and the glow plugs aren't crushed. I would think that the glow plugs would have to come out prior to clamping down of the ARP studs and a long bolt of the same size thread be temporarily installed in its place while the torqueing is going on. Then removed when the torqueing is completed and the threads chased before the glow plugs are replaced. :2cents:

I remember speaking with an ARP representative about what he thought of installing the ARP studs on an already leaky head gasket and he suggested that the HG be replaced, he mentioned that more often than not, those people who did not replace their leaky head gasket, did not solve the problem.


It is true that once you have the head exposed enough to do a one by one replacement, that there isn't a great deal more work to replace the HG. Conceptually, what you suggest WRT GPs makes sense, but I will have to see what the thread is and source a tap. When I do the next motor I will add that to the procedure and let you know how it works.

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2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:29 pm 
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I wanted to post an update, I continue to have the low coolant warning. I've found that, with the engine warm, not hot, if I shut it down and gently loosen the overflow tank cap, there's a lot of gurgling and the coolant level returns to normal. While I assume it's coming back to the regular tank from the upper right overflow, I really don't know. I'm wondering if something with my thermostat could be causing this, I have installed the inline stat so my temps hold steady at just a tick below half on the gauge.

I did an oil analysis with Blackstone Labs, it showed no signs of coolant. Here was the text from the comments section:

DAVID: We look for excessive potassium and sodium when measuring coolant and neither element is high in this sample. If you're losing coolant, it doesn't appear to be getting into the engine oil. Wear metals look great. Universal averages show typical wear levels for this type of engine after about 6,300 miles on the oil. Some of these VM Motori diesels make a lot of iron, but yours is wearing very nicely indeed. No fuel was present and air and oil filtration are fine. The TBN was 4.0 showing plenty of active additive left; less than 1.0 is low. Nice report and engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:00 pm 
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yakers wrote:
An oil analysis or ultraviolet dye is a good way to go. Blackstone identified coolant in my oil as did the dye later despite two Jeep dealers saying I did not have a leak based on presure testing and sniffing the coolant resevior for exhaust.



If they used the gas engine test for exhaust in the coolant reservoir, it doesn't work on a diesel and will report zero even with a massive HG leak into the coolant. A special diesel-only test solution is required.

Mine got to where you could see substantial bubbling in the coolant tank even at idle. And when the head did come off, the gasket was blown in two places, and the head cracked in two places, too. I guess I got lucky, all parts were immediately available, and my mechanic was able to get it all back together and purring like a kitten in a couple weeks while the wife and I were off elsewhere on vacation. Total cost, with the timing belt, water pump, and tensioners/idlers was about $3500. Still expensive, but tolerable, considering what @yakers had to fork out. And actually a worthwhile investment because the job found for me a worthy mechanic. And having a wrench who fixes things rather than just throwing parts at it, and will be fair with you on the job, is worth a lot more than $3500 in my book.


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 Post subject: Re: Low Coolant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:01 pm 
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naturist wrote:

Mine got to where you could see substantial bubbling in the coolant tank even at idle. And when the head did come off, the gasket was blown in two places, and the head cracked in two places, too.



Where was the head gasket and head cracked? Was your engine overheated? I pulled my head for coolant loss also. I didn't have any signs of coolant in the oil or a pressure built up in the reservoir. I was having a hard time with the first start of the day below freezing. After all the work to change the timing belt I just went the extra mile and removed the head.

No obvious spots on the head gasket rings looked blown and I don't see any cracks on the head. Straight edge across the head looks good also. I did find slight pitting on two intake valves that had a little corrosion also. I guessing that is the cylinder with the coolant in it. I hoping after a new head gasket and ARP studs this will over with.

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