smoke and rattling

jamesdart · **Joined:** Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:41 pm **Posts:** 53

yeah oh well. at least i didnt pay good money for one to drive down the road and have that happen. i bought it thinking worst case, it needs a motor. looks like #4 rod is hanging out the side of the block, looks like the rod bolts failed.

06PeakBagger · **Posted:** Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:54 pm

Yikes

kjjet · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:09 pm

I figured it ws not going to be good. NOISE is Bad in these things?

Where are you located? If I may ask what did you pay for it?

saabflyer89 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:08 pm

Hi guys, I bought a jeep that sounds kinda like this one, but I'm still thinking its a timing thing, Jeep can be really hard to start and when it does I get black smoke, engine vibration and NO power. when pulling it in the garage, I had to put her in low range to make the hill getting into my garage at which point I did hear the turbo try to spool up. I will try some of these tricks you guys have talked about and see what i get. My thoughts are if a rod is bad the engine would run more or less fine (with perhaps low oil pressure) and would have more or less full power until the rod let go. There seems to be plenty of oil in the crank case so I don't suspect the turbo has let go but again I'll take a look at that as well tomorrow. The jeep has 106k on the original TB a bit early to have skipped time but still late for the replacement so I'm hoping thats what it is. also if the turbo went out I'd think the engine would still idle just fine because it wouldn't really be making any boost at idle and would only feel doggy when put under a load again running fine just very low on power. I'll see what you guys think I guess. The engine defiantly has a miss in it and sounds to me as if its only running on about 2 cyl which if it did skip time I'd think that only a few cyls would still be operational.

saabflyer89 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:34 pm

The thought of the Turbo going out and taking out the bottom end has been bugging me so I just went and checked the turbo, ZERO play front to back and really no play from side to side either but it spins very nicely. So with that said am I right in thinking that she just skipped timing? sorry to hijack this thread but its pretty close to what I have

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:32 pm

Interesting that this failure (redirecting the thread back to the OP's vehicle) involves the rod bolts missing from their bores...

That is exactly what happened to the second of my engine failures: The #4 rod cap and bolts left their assigned duty station, and the rod itself was shoved through the side of the block.

The first engine failure had ONE of the rod bolts missing, the other seemed to be mostly backed out, but bent in half by the failure and passing through the oil pan.

Hmm, I wonder why this keeps happening to these. Rod bolts are NOT a maintenance item on any engine, these should not be failing or backing out **ever**.

Read my signature line for my thoughts about noises however. Ignore noise at your own peril.

kjjet · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:18 pm

First...Geordi I knew you would chime in!

2nd...Saabflyer89: If you think your roockers are bad, did you take the intake hose off and do the suck air test? (that is with a dollar bill or paper) FYI: are you a pilot?

saabflyer89 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:45 pm

Hey kjjet, no i havn't done the dollar bill test, i was planning on taking the cam plugs out tomorrow and trying to see if both would go in and then look to see how the bolts lined up on the crank as per advisement from a fellow lost member. I have the turbo exposed as of now I guess I can put things back together just to make sure nothing finds its way into the turbo and fire the beast up and try the paper trick. I did fly when I was in high school but that's almost as expensive a hobby as owning a CRD haha, :ROTFL:

just kidding. No I got my private pilots license in high school then went to Spartan School of Aeronautics to get my A&P license but did not finish sadly.

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:01 am

jamesdart wrote:

ok, i guess it had a broken rod. had it running, went to move some cars around. went to move it, and it locked up there was a handful of pieces of block laying on the ground.

You need to find a good bottom end, everything else may be OK. I don't think the head is blown.

Look for a used engine with a blown head gasket and a good bottom end, those may be had for cheap.

If this is a project vehicle, take your time and rebuild it right.

kjjet · **Posted:** Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:50 am

saabflyer89 wrote:

Hey kjjet, no i havn't done the dollar bill test, i was planning on taking the cam plugs out tomorrow and trying to see if both would go in and then look to see how the bolts lined up on the crank as per advisement from a fellow lost member. I have the turbo exposed as of now I guess I can put things back together just to make sure nothing finds its way into the turbo and fire the beast up and try the paper trick. I did fly when I was in high school but that's almost as expensive a hobby as owning a CRD haha, :ROTFL:

just kidding. No I got my private pilots license in high school then went to Spartan School of Aeronautics to get my A&P license but did not finish sadly.

Saabflyer...You could see if the cams are lined up.
1. If the cam pins go in. (my guess they will, If it jumped time it dose it at the crank)
2. Verify the crank position is 90 deg past top dead center. (the timing mark is on the crank shaft under the pully)
3. You may need to turn the engine over a few times before the cam's and crank will line up. If they do the flywheel pin will go in.

I would try the suck- blow test first. That will tell you if your in time or have broken rockers.

I saw Saabflyer and thought Pilot? So your an A&P? Me too, over 25 years. You can figure this CRD out, easy stuff? for an A&P!

Any questions PM Me. My CRD had a Bad rockers, jumped time at 94k. Runing like a top now!

saabflyer89 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:35 pm

Good morning guys,

Well I just back up from the garage after getting ready to do the paper test, and here is what I found. I removed both samaco hoses and the short intake pipe going into the turbo from the airbox. As I stated before I checked the turbo last night and shes as tight as .... well you can insert comic idea here, this morning I fired the beast up and right away without having the boost hoses hooked up you could hear the engine popping very loudly almost as if you had taken the exhaust manifold off instead. I didn't even walk around with a piece of paper I feel even more confident that its timing, as there would be no reason for such a loud popping coming from the engine with these hoses off unless I'm missing something. Also I have a small garage in the basement of my house so I didn't really want to run it too much and fill the house with the smell of unburnt diesel fuel, you know how the misses can be on those things lol. Either way I guess I'll wait and see what the verdict is from you guys. Oh and I have not finished my A&P license yet sorry.

Hexus · **Posted:** Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:19 pm

John -

Sounds just like mine. I'm getting ready to gut it for Rocker/Lifters and Timing Belt/Water Pump/etc.

I initially blew a turbo when mine jumped, but alas jump it did. Sounds exactly what you are describing, which is crushed rockers/lifters.

The VM Specialist :google:

has Rockers/Lifters for the best prices period.

£14.30 per x 16 = £228.80

Shipping is £34.60

Total US ends up $384.20 to have them shipped to your house.

Adjust prices as needed if you want to replace all or just damaged ones.

Jeepantalaktika on Ebay sells Timing Belt Kits with GRAF water pumps and OEM Pulleys for $398 on Ebay.

You can utilize the often mentioned folk at IDParts.com and do some shopping with them as well.

Best of luck, I'm starting mine this Sunday.

bigjl · **Joined:** Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:38 pm **Posts:** 50

Not sure how much help it will be but the VM specialist told me a bottom end for a 2.5 is £800+ vat (20%).

I wouldn't think the 2.8 will be much different.

Not a cheap solution but it does come with the bearing fitted.

Hole in the block is the way most of the VM 2.5 engines meet their maker over here.

Cambelt interval on the 2.5 VM is 70k up to 2011 then it was changed to 84k, at the same time they increased the OCI to 12k from 10k.

Thought that might be useful as the 2.5 and 2.8 use the same timing belt kit.

Perhaps 100k miles is just too long in this relatively old design.

The only other diesel that I have seen with a longer interval is the 2.0 PSA/Ford engine you see in Peugeot, Citreon, Ford and Volvos. But that is a much newer design and much smoother with less vibes.

It is common practice to leave the pump alone on the 2.5, not sure but I think the pump runs off the crank pulley but not directly on the timing belt.

Can anybody that has done the job, I got a garage to do mine, confirm that?

I know a new water pump is £385+Vat supplied and fitted over here!

kjjet · **Posted:** Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:44 pm

Well....SAABFLYER89...It could be worse. At least you know now the intake needs removed to inspect.

I would: (as you remove things, lable them with tape & take pictures)

1. Remove everything as to change the timing belt.
2. Put the engine in 90 deg past TDC and put in all the pins.
3. Remove the T-belt.
4. With a holding tool remove the cam shaft pullys.
5. Remove the alum fnt engine cover.
5. Make as much room as possible. Remove Battery, Fuel filter housing, Air box, coolant container.
6. Disconnect the wireing harness from the passanger side, top of the engine and place over where the battery was.
7. Remove the fuel rail, fuel injectors, CCV and all sensors on the intake including ELBO.
8. The manual calls for alinment pins for the intake. You need them! (make them) I removed one center intake bolt and took it to the hardware store. Got two much longer bolts and cut the heads off and made a screwdriver slot.
9. install intake pins, loosen all intake bolts and slide intake up and off.
10. Look at all the broken rockers. Exhaust side.
11. Inspect the rockers, the rollers should have next to no movement. (they will)
12. Inspect the cam's lobs.
13. Start the list of needed parts, It will be long! Suggest all new Rockers & lifters.

Let me know if you have any questions, PM works good.

GOOD LUCK!

jamesdart · **Joined:** Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:41 pm **Posts:** 53

yeah, its a project. for now. it would be nice to make it a daily driver eventually. id like to replace my 02 kj with this one. the 02 is my daily driver/light wheeler.

kjjet · **Posted:** Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:24 am

jamesdart wrote:

yeah oh well. at least i didnt pay good money for one to drive down the road and have that happen. i bought it thinking worst case, it needs a motor. looks like #4 rod is hanging out the side of the block, looks like the rod bolts failed.

Question: Where did the rod let go? At the crank, piston or did it break in 1/2?

Any luck finding a engine or block?

smoke and rattling

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