Oil levels and consumption

cerich · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:35 pm

So was in the shop getting the tranny filter tsb done, the service manager and I have developed a good relationship, he seems to appreciate the fact that his mechanics and service writters get called rapidly on their BS.

I had the oil changed while there, we have been trying to determine why the oil consumption is high since I got the vehicle (you can read more on another thread).

The manager instructed his mechanic to drain, change filter and add exactly 6.4qts.
When I picked it up I popped the hood and checked the oil, it was showing 1/8" below the min mark. With a smile I pointed that out and he lost it. The CRD then had it's new 0w40 mobile one drained, filter off, new one on and a pissed off mechanic insisting he followed his instructions. Upon verified refill of 6.4qts the dang thing showed at the same point on the dipstick.... :oops:

So now a call to DC and 45 mins later the manger was told the following, "known issue, fill it by capacity ignore the dipstick. When filled with 6.4qts mark the level on the dipstick (scratch it), that is you new full level. If you fill it to the max point it will be well overfilled and you'll have the engine blowing oil past until it reachs the proper level. That will explain the "oil consumption issue" you have had. By the way some of the 2.8's show overfull when filled to 6.4qts, remark them as well.

Interesting isn't it? i'll see how well the oil holds at it's new full point just below "MIN"

RedJeepCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:37 pm

HUMMMMM?????? That makes me wonder??????

Wes

tired_old_dave · **Joined:** Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:45 pm **Posts:** 79

That has been mentioned here and elsewhere a long time ago. If you have the time read old threads. Don't use 0w40. Read your oil level in the morning with a cold motor. I mentioned the oil dipsstick at edmunds a long time ago. My stick showed halfway when full. Yes, this is probably why some have enormous amounts of oil in the intake system, but correct fill level does not keep 5w40 out of mine with that crappy factory ccv in there. How's your tranny dipstick?

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Waiting to check the level is the right thing to do. If I check at the fuel station my stick shows it down to the min mark. If I wait about 10 min after engine shut down at home, it shows it just below full. BTW, I am now at about 10k miles since my last change (total miles 22,800) and the level has not dropped at all as far as I can tell. I get free oil changes for life at my dealer and he puts in 0-40 so that is what is in the Jeep.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:06 pm

Hummm, seem to remember mentioning this problem also and how mine would read different from a 2 to 5 minute sit, to an over night sitting. I too have the extra marks on the dipstick, gives me a giggle. :wink:

By the way 6.4 or 6.5 qt's is about 1/4" below my fill mark.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:27 pm

Mine seem to settle in @ 1/8 inch below the full mark. Even then, the dealer tech insisted it was over filled. Do they know something we don't? Find it strange that they even looked at the oil level (also screwing with the CAC hoses). I had it in for a transfer case seal, suprised they even opened the hood.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:21 am

I think I'll trust VM Motori's dipstick over what DC has to say, given their track record so far.

I've changed mine myself, and if you pour in 6 1/2 quarts and then check the dipstick, it's right at the MAX mark. Then, after you start the engine and let it run for a few minutes, filling the filter, surprise, surprise, it's reading a half quart low.

For the last 9000 miles, I've filled it to 7 quarts with Rotella 5W40. Oil consumption has been basically zero, every time I've checked it has been right on the max mark. What the Proven collects with 5W40 isn't that much either, maybe 3 or 4 inches of oil in a 1/2" ID hose over a month. Even when filled to the MAX point with 7 quarts, with Rotella 5W40 this beast just flat out doesn't use oil.

During the first 900 miles with that 0W40 crap, different story. Used a half quart in 900 miles, and looking at the intercooler inlet hose I bloody well know where it went.

This wouldn't be the first vehicle I've come across where the oil capacity in the owners manual didn't take into account the oil filter as well. Some vehicles even list two different oil capacities, one with and one without the filter. IMHO, someone at DC has got the "with" and "without" capacities bass ackwards.

Considering the way DC's reply was worded, "Some 2.8 L engines may be overfilled as well", I think these guys were talking about the U.S. manufactured GAS engines and may not have even understood that the SM WAS referring to a 2.8 L diesel.

Instead of asking DC, I think I'd go direct to VM Motori and ask them what the oil capacity is supposed to be, with and without the filter, and whether or not there has been an issue with their dipsticks being mismarked. Given the general lack of a clue I've seen most DC personnel display when it comes to this beast, I'll wait until I see something official and in writing before I go scratching up my dipstick and leaving out 1/2 quart of oil.

Especially after doing the tranny TSB. Manuals and TSB list 5 quarts for a service fill, where if you change out both filters it actually takes 9 quarts. It's been incidents like this over the past few months, and some of the BS I've been told by techs and service writers, that have lead me to put more trust in my own mechanical common sense, developed over 20 years of keeping the engineroom on a nuke sub in one piece, that if it looks wrong to me it probably is wrong, regardless of what the dealership might say, and at the least get an independent opinion from a reliable mechanic.

So here's my opinion, free of charge - 6 1/2 quarts is the sump capacity WITHOUT the filter, close to 7 quarts WITH the filter. VM Motori, not DC, would be the best authority to confirm or deny this, and confirm or deny whether the dipstick is mismarked. If this IS a known issue with the 2.8 L diesel, they'd better get their butts in gear and get a TSB out to cover it. And until said TSB or some sort of official word is forthcoming, my dipstick will remain unmodified. Lastly, if you're still using 0W40 CF rated oil and having an issue with oil consumption, that's been beaten to death so many times it's not worth repeating.

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:11 am

retmil46 wrote:

I've changed mine myself, and if you pour in 6 1/2 quarts and then check the dipstick, it's right at the MAX mark. Then, after you start the engine and let it run for a few minutes, filling the filter, surprise, surprise, it's reading a half quart low.

For the last 9000 miles, I've filled it to 7 quarts with Rotella 5W40. Oil consumption has been basically zero, every time I've checked it has been right on the max mark.

X2.

That's my exact observation as well....I switched to Rotella-T 5W40 at the 11.4K mark. What oil that was consumed during the first 11k miles or so I attributed to break-in and maybe the Mobil 1 0W40 not being as *good* as it's cracked up to be. I've used Shell Rotella-T 5W40 in my 2003 Dodge RAM 2500 CTD with great results.

Greg

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I've changed my CRD oil twice now and both times it has taken exactly 7 quarts to reach the full mark on the dipstick. Using Mobile 1 5W-40 T&SUV diesel rated oil. Comsumption nearly nil, and still have some oil in the Provent, but nothing like the first 5K miles on 0W-40 Factory fill.

cerich · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:46 am

for the guy that wants it in writting there is a DC service note on it in the system, not a TSB

tired_old_dave · **Joined:** Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:45 pm **Posts:** 79

This is my first diesel. Followed my wife home after she picked up the crd when new(02/05). Drove to the house then to OK. 40-50 miles to the house and by the time we got there the window/hood of my car was covered in oil? In OK the next morning the oil level had gone to my now full level after oil change. And after the trip home with about 600 miles and three days the oil level was still at the same place it was the first morning in OK. I knew about diesel break-in with regular oil from reading about the cummins break-in procedure. Since factory fill was mobil 1, I assumed like a corvette, no extensive break-in was needed just like in the owners manual. Was the oil truly unburnt synthetic oil from the dealer filling to the full mark and/or the first few miles of "break-in". Our '96 ford 351 windsor gave false low oil level readings from the hole in the block being larger than the dipstick tube a not uncommon problem(ford mechanics super glue-mine jb weld). Should we all check our tubes for a tight fit in the block, measure the length of the spring part of the dipstick, and the length of the steel marked tipped that appears shoved/screwed into the flexible shaft.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:33 pm

cerich wrote:

for the guy that wants it in writting there is a DC service note on it in the system, not a TSB

Just got back from dealer checking on the EGR Air Flow Control Valve, which has come in and they are going to try to work me in tomorrow. But while there I checked on a couple of things and looked at a couple of service notes, one was the oil fill note about 6.4 qts oil only on oil change. I put the 7 qts in to fill to mark on dipstick and next time I checked about 1000 to 1500 miles later it was down about 1/4 inch on the dipstick and hasn't moved since. I had it do the same with original fill and topped it off and 1000 to 1500 miles later it was down about 1/4 inch, I have since marked the dipstick for the 6.4 oil fill spot. I do know enough about engines to know that a 1/2 qt low will never hurt the engine, but 1/2 over can.

My '81 Datsun truck was the same way, 4 5/8 qts with oil & filter chhange. But if you put the 5/8 quart in it would be gone in about 1000 miles and never use another drop, so for the next 10 years and 145,000 miles never did anything but a 4 qt oil & filter change and never had a problem and never had to add any more oil between oil changes. What was funny, my '90 Nissan pickup with same engine was same way.

I had a '87 Jeep 4.0 that was one of the early 4.0L engines and one of the first 2wd models built, and owner's manual said 6 qts. But when I check on it later after a problem came up, the manual was talking about the 4x4 models and did not consider the 2wd model which had different oil pan and only held 5 qts. The 6 qts that I put in by mistake sludged the engine in less then 3000 miles and it was Mobil 1 5w-20 oil by the way. The build up starts in the head first and and it plugs the returns is when the bottom end starts sludging up. I pulled the valve over and cleaned out the the valve train area best I could and added the 5 qts and went about 500 miles and changed filter, I did that several more time till 2000 mile mark and changed the oil again along with filter. Did the next oil change at 3000 miles with a oil filter change at halfway between. I then worked it back to 10,000 mile oil change and never had a problem and the oil cleaned out the last of the sludge. The Jeep now has over 270,000 miles and has only needed new valve cover gaskets, front and rear oil seals at 235,000 along with all fuel injectors.

Now granted gassers run higher head temps then diesel, but I doubt the '87 4.0L had much if any higher head temp then our CRD, so it might be possible to have the same happen with over fill on the CRD. I not sure it would, but I'm not taking the chance.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:25 am

What got me fired up on this wasn't the thread itself, but what I saw happen elsewhere after it was started.

I understand what the meaning was, that SOME dipsticks, for whatever reason, may be off.

However, as I feared, once the jackals on some of the other forums got ahold of this, all manner of hell broke loose. Not even a full day after this thread started, they were trumpeting to the world that the dipsticks on EVERY CRD were mismarked, and that everyone needed to remark their dipstick next time they did an oil change. I saw where a brand new owner, asking for tips and mods for his new vehicle, was flat out told that the engine oil dipsticks on CRD's were wrong and that he would have to remark it on his own when he did his first oil change. After reading a couple of posts along these lines, I was about ready to flip. Less than 24 hours, and what is a minor glitch on some vehicles had been turned into a new urban legend for the CRD.

What the original poster on this thread did was exactly right - if you think the dipstick is wrong, go to the service department, have THEM verify the oil level, and have THEM remark the dipstick, and document everything. At least that way, if they screw up and mark it incorrectly, and the engine goes south because the oil level was too high or too low, you're covered because that was a mod approved and done by the dealer. If you do it on your own, and the same thing happens, then that copy of your drivetrain warranty and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee and not much else.

It really raised my hackles that some people were blithely advising others to just go out and remark their dipsticks to whatever they felt was the correct level. I seriously doubt that any of the ones offering this advice would be willing to pony up the money for a new engine for the people that followed their sage wisdom and ended up trashing theirs. I imagine that the grief you would get concerning your warranty over a Provent or a aftermarket muffler would be peanuts compared to what you would get if you told the SM you had remarked the dipstick and was running the engine at what you thought was the correct oil level.

Just as bad was this gem of wisdom - "OK, that's why I have oil in my intake system, my dipstick is wrong and my engine must be overfilled and the excess is getting sucked out the valve cover. If I run my oil level one quart lower, I shouldn't get oil in my intake system any more." :shock:

It's enough to make you cry.

To the original poster on this thread, that's why I came across the way I did, and if I came across as abrupt or rude, I apologize. FWIW, as I said before, you did it right, having the service dept verify and remark the dipstick. And at least they do have a service note to cover it.

I would still be interested to know what VMM considers the proper oil level to be, both with and without the filter added in. From the looks of it, some of us are running along fine with adding in 1/2 quart for the filter at the MAX mark, while others are losing oil at anything over 6 1/2.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:44 am

One thing I forgot to mention on my CRD is I had a bent ditpstick tube and the dipstick and tube was replaced at about 700 miles, it was never able to be checked with original dipstick. It is not the original and could be different, Mitch is right this is a common sense thing, and being blown out of portotion. Our CRD requires 7 qts now to show full, but will blow/suck or whatever about half qt (1/4" on stick) in a short order, most likely due to replacement stick improperly marked. But this is not the big deal as it could be in my 2.7L Dodge Magnum engine.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:00 pm

Man I just now went back and read all of the postings I didn't read before I posted. I sometimes only read the last posted commment, not a wise to due sometimes. I just may be sort of stupid today as it's Saturday, but I haven't been able to make the connection of your last posting Mitch. I didn't think anything you said was abrupt or rude, but then I am not a thin skinned person. As for the bullitin on overfilling, I am paying about as much attention to that as is the local dealer seems to be. They just go by dipstick. Myself I use the 6.5 quarts that I can easy measure and don't worry about the other half quart, as I have for years done on several vehicles. Actually I wished it did hold seven quarts, I hate having a 1/2 quart container laying around for months at a time.

One thing I will say here is that we all seem to obsess over our vehicles, some more then others, and it often seems rather silly to me. One thing I have noticed about myself and that is after belonging to a forum long enough it seems to start repeating itself as for as tech info and such, and then I start to loose interest in the forum and become an ocassional visitor. I seem to be headed that way again and sort of regret it, but I guess that is just the way of things with me.

Now if anyone takes offence to what I have posted please let it let it go. It was ment to be about me, not you.

tired_old_dave · **Joined:** Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:45 pm **Posts:** 79

Don't want to beat this to death but I agree 1/2 qt low is better than 1/2 qt over. And it seems that we each have our own individual full point. Some where some time back someone said they/he put 8 or 9 qts of oil in the block. I'm guessing I could easily do 8qts based on my dipstick and that is what prompted my earlier post about measuring the dipsticks. I do a complete let it drip oil change and put in 6.4 qts and hatefully have a partial qt laying around for months. I may look at the dipstick (why bother) again before the next change.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:19 pm

Walt, you didn't offend anyone. I was concerned I might have come on a little strong after reading the "for the guy that wants it in writing" response from the gentleman that started this thread. I was concerned that he may have thought I was dismissing him out of hand, and that wasn't my intention at all. I was PO'd at some of the idiots out there that were already blowing this into the next major mega-catastrophe for the CRD, and rereading what I'd posted it seemed to me that some of that attitude had crept into the post. That's why I offered an apology to anyone I might have offended.

FWIW, I checked in the FSM, and if it can be believed, it quotes 6 liters with filter change for oil capacity. If I remember correctly, it's roughly 3.8 liters per gallon, without doing the math that sounds like it would be close to 6 1/2 quarts.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:26 pm

6 ltr = 1.585 gal = 1.585 x 128 = or just about 6.4 qts.

I have emailed VM in Centro for their imput.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:35 pm

tired_old_dave wrote:

Don't want to beat this to death but I agree 1/2 qt low is better than 1/2 qt over. And it seems that we each have our own individual full point. Some where some time back someone said they/he put 8 or 9 qts of oil in the block. I'm guessing I could easily do 8qts based on my dipstick and that is what prompted my earlier post about measuring the dipsticks. I do a complete let it drip oil change and put in 6.4 qts and hatefully have a partial qt laying around for months. I may look at the dipstick (why bother) again before the next change.

I may just do a 6 qt change and be done with it like I did my Nissan trucks for 20 years, and both those went past 200k miles. For those who didn't read my earlier post they would suck out the 5/8ths quart of the 4 5/8 quarts required for oil & filter change in about 1000 miles and use none after that before oil change time again.

gsbrockman · **Posted:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:57 pm

oldnavy wrote:

1 ltr = 1.585 gal = 1.585 x 128 = or just about 6.4 qts.

How can that be when : 1 US gallon = 3.7854118 litres ?????? :lol:

Oil levels and consumption

Who is online