Engine won't turn over by hand after TB

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:38 pm

thermorex wrote:

I'm not sure about this, but I think the vm tool won't fit in the flywheel unless its the right hole. Hopefully some other people can confirm this.

There is several places the VM tool or a 5mm hex key will drop into. You must verify you are at 90 degrees past TDC (3:00) by looking at the crank position mark.

flman · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:06 pm

kjjet wrote:

thermorex wrote:

I'm not sure about this, but I think the vm tool won't fit in the flywheel unless its the right hole. Hopefully some other people can confirm this.

There is several places the VM tool or a 5mm hex key will drop into. You must verify you are at 90 degrees past TDC (3:00) by looking at the crank position mark.

According to the second to last picture, it looks like the allen key may be able to drop in to more then one hole? But according to Keith's write up he does not mention multiple holes?

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1729864 ... a=y&dnad=y

thermorex · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:19 pm

Flman and kjjet: agree with both, and tbh, the probability to screw up timing so that the vm tool or 6mm Allen will fit another hole on the flywheel isn't too high...

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:41 pm

90 Degrees Past TDC is the ONLY place all 3 pins will go in. You can be at what SEEMS LIKE 90 Degrees PTDC and get the intake and exhaust pins in, but then the flywheel pin will NOT fit in and you have to Rotate the crank 180 degrees.

I didn't use the Allen Key Approach, and I didn't use a drill bit, I used the actual tool, VM.1089(if I recall) to lock the plate into place.

I did have to take the intake and exhaust pins out and rotate it another 180 degrees because the small drill bit I was trying to use to find the hole was banging against the flywheel, there's not a hole at 180 degrees wrong but the intake and exhaust pins will go in there, and because of that I wanted to make sure that I used the right pin because I could have stuck that drill bit against the actual fly wheel thinking it was in a hole when both my pins were in place on the intake/exhaust.

I know that also because I watched Sir Sam's Video and payed attention when he was talking about "Be careful if it won't at least go this far in, because it will have to be rotated 180 degrees."

What I'm trying to say is, if you didn't know what you were doing because you had done it before, and you skipped the video instructions then it's very possible you just sat the 6mm allen key in there and never had it in the hole, which causes bad things.

The VM tool or the Sealey tool (They're exactly the same) won't even start threading in if you aren't in the right spot, because the threads will be 1" further back from where it stops going in if you're 180 degrees off.

I think an allen key is a terrible idea, and I only think the drill bit is feasible if you've done the job before and know what depth you're looking for.

But, I guess those are just my opinions.

flman · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:45 pm

thermorex wrote:

Flman and kjjet: agree with both, and tbh, the probability to screw up timing so that the vm tool or 6mm Allen will fit another hole on the flywheel isn't too high...

That seems accurate, from the FSM see attachment.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19672761/Locking%20engine.pdf

I think you are off a tooth some where like a previous poster mentioned, I doubt you locked it wrong, the tooth is some where in slack between the other cogs?

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:48 pm

flman wrote:

thermorex wrote:

Flman and kjjet: agree with both, and tbh, the probability to screw up timing so that the vm tool or 6mm Allen will fit another hole on the flywheel isn't too high...

That seems accurate, from the FSM see attachment.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19672761/Locking%20engine.pdf

I think you are off a tooth some where like a previous poster mentioned, I doubt you locked it wrong, the tooth is some where in slack between the other cogs?

Sir Sam talked about this in his video too, and what he talked about exactly worked for me. You can turn the crank at least 1 tooth back while the locking pins are all still in place to get the extra space out of the timing belt.

This is why I also rotated the timing belt 20 times before I ever tried a startup checking with the intake/exhaust pins every few rotations and ensure that my marks lined back up after that many rotations ruled out the possibility that I was not off even 1 tooth.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:04 pm

I agree with all of you, But in talking with 4x4kingx889 he installed all the pins, changed the belt, turned the engine over a few times then upon further inspection found the pump timing out by 1 tooth. So he reinstalled the pins and reset the pump timing. Upon turning the engine over by hand again it locked up. Trouble? don't know? Not Good!

The only thing i can think to tell him is to remove the intake which would stop the valves from moving and see if it is still locked up? If it is, mabe a glow plug broke off? Possible. If it turns over with the intake off, the timing was off someway.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:16 pm

Comments for what they are worth:
1. I largely agree with Hexus and I also had to pull the cam pins and rotate some more before all 3 "pins" would go in. That said if you are in the right spot the crank bolt holes will the at 12/3/6/9, the crank dimple will be at 3, the 2 cam pins will go in easily, and the flywheel pin will fit perfectly. Neither I nor geordi, when I helped him could get the VM flywheel pin to thread simple because of thread problems. Where I part company with Hexus is the 6mm or 1/4" allen key is a perfectly acceptable factory approved (see pg. 9-243 of the 05 FSM for how to) method and I'll note that the key barely slides into the flywheel hole so there is no doubt about when you are in the right hole and centered/squared up.
2. I consider it critical to a) count the TB teeth between the top of the cams (probably over kill), b) mark a tooth on each cam and the adjacent cover, c) mark 2 or 4 opposing cam teeth, d) mark a CP3 tooth and the adjacent cover prior to removal of the old TB. On reinstall and during check rotations make sure those marks continue to line up. The CP3 was a bit of a pain to get the belt on while keeping the tooth/cover mark lined up. How critical that is I don't know as there is no consensus on how "timed" the CP3 is although there is a mark that in theory lines up every 3rd rotation.
3. you definitely need to wiggle the crank to get the TB seated on the crank properly or there won't be enough slack to get it over the idler. I suggested you might be off a tooth, although how you could get things seated and the marks to line up off a tooth I don't know, mainly because that's the only thing I can think of that would cause the tensioner to wiggle like it does.

4x4kingx889 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:42 pm **Posts:** 235

I got it turns out when I took the belt off the second time to line the cp3 up I did not look at the crank mark...and just looked at my sharpy marks

sent from my sgh-1717 running CM10

mark2m · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:24 pm

Hey guys help me understand. What's going to happen if you are 180* out when you re-assemble?

Thanks,
Mark

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:26 pm

I set the timing with a 6mm key with the crank mark at 90 degrees when the cam pins line up. Using a flashlight and a mirror. Pin the cams. I always loosen the cam sprokets therefore i never need to wiggle anything the belt just slides on. I start at the crank and place a small vice-grip on the crank to keep the belt from moving. Then start counterclockwise over the pump, idle pulley, cam sprokets, idle pulley, water pump then tensioner. Never have to move or force anything, other than setting the pump timing. I do not mark anything. The cam sprokets being loose gives the belt the movement to just slide on. Set the tension, tighten the cam sprokets. Recheck the tension. Remove the pins rotate clockwise several times. Recheck tension. That's it.

Engine won't turn over by hand after TB

Who is online