CRD rocker arm wear...more info

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:23 pm

I got 19.5 with Torque Pro at 762 RPM (idle with GDE HOT) (VERY RPM dependent) and the coolant at about 110 F.

Search function did not work to find original GDE post that had MAF reference values.

Anyone know where it is?

Thanks,

DOC

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:02 pm

jeepdan wrote:

One thing, it's pretty safe to say, that we should be taking the rocker cover off and checking things out during the 100,000 mile service intervals.
Most of our CRDs are nearing 100,000 miles, the damage has already been done. Changing oil grades now might be fruitless without replacing worn parts. :cry:

I'm going inspect CRD #2 this summer for rocker wear. I had no prior maintenence history on it when I bought it at 103,000 miles.
Haven't had the extra cash for the GDE tune, so I have been doing ORM on it for the last 18 months.
With the ORM mode, the oil has never cleaned up and looks like black paint in a very short time :cry:

Even with the ORM and an EHM on my CRD, with the EGR disabled from the first week I had it... My oil never stayed clean for 3k miles either. Black as a politician's soul within maybe 150 miles.

80% of my driving was at highway speeds and conditions, towing maybe 3% of the total mileage.

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DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:52 pm

A recent post clarified that while the ORM reduces EGR operation, it does not do so nearly as much as SEGR or a GDE tune. I think that may explain why your oil never "cleaned up" as is pretty standard with SEGR and GDE users.

DOC

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:18 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

CATCRD,

I recall that, but not the values.

I have the Torque Pro App and would like to see what I get. Should you check at a reference RPM, load, no-load, etc?

Thanks,

DOC

Please check at idle rpm with fully warm engine. Also post your idle rpm, ambient temperature, and elevation above sea level, since these all have a large effect on the value. GDE posted the good range in mg per stroke, while torque reports g/s so you have to convert units using your idle rpm and correcting for temp and elevation. The range GDE posted was about 650 to 720 mg/stroke. I think if you're above 17 g/s at sea level you're fine.

Edit: here is the original info with my conversion formula from mg/stroke to g/s. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73782&p=774101#p774101

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:13 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

A recent post clarified that while the ORM reduces EGR operation, it does not do so nearly as much as SEGR or a GDE tune. I think that may explain why your oil never "cleaned up" as is pretty standard with SEGR and GDE users.

DOC

Thing is - I had the SEGR from the first week, and GDE came after that. At some point, my EGR pipes accidentally "fell off" (probably atrophied from lack of use) and never were seen again.

Never changed the oil's color however. I don't know what is different about my engines, because the top of the engine was beautifully clean. No sludge anywhere inside the cover.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:00 pm

geordi wrote:

DOC4444 wrote:

A recent post clarified that while the ORM reduces EGR operation, it does not do so nearly as much as SEGR or a GDE tune. I think that may explain why your oil never "cleaned up" as is pretty standard with SEGR and GDE users.

DOC

Thing is - I had the SEGR from the first week, and GDE came after that. At some point, my EGR pipes accidentally "fell off" (probably atrophied from lack of use) and never were seen again.

Never changed the oil's color however. I don't know what is different about my engines, because the top of the engine was beautifully clean. No sludge anywhere inside the cover.

Interesting. Some folks (with and w/o the ORM/GDE tune) have oil that get black very quickly, some do not. I am curious why. I was thinking that it was a partially stuck EGR, but if the pipes "fell off" and the oil still gets black, there goes that theory. My oil stays very clean, and only gets slightly darker (on the dipstick) by the time I change it around 4500 or so.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:02 pm

With all that, there is only one remaining possibility, blow-by past the rings.

DOC

jeepdan · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:25 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

With all that, there is only one remaining possibility, blow-by past the rings.

DOC

That's quite true.
Here is an opinion that will start arguments

, I think that having the turbo pulling vacuum on the block is much better at getting rid of blow-by gases and soot than just venting it into a hose and relying on blow-by pressure to
get rid of it.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Easy to check. Just insert a vacuum/pressure gauge with a rubber cone on the end into the oil filler neck with/without EHM. However, I thought the idea of the EHM was to keep the oil/water vapors OUT of the turbo intake side.

Anyway, this is supposed to be a rocker bearing wear thread. Has anybody else checked their MAF numbers at idle?

DOC

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:16 pm

jeepdan wrote:

DOC4444 wrote:

With all that, there is only one remaining possibility, blow-by past the rings.

DOC

That's quite true.
Here is an opinion that will start arguments

, I think that having the turbo pulling vacuum on the block is much better at getting rid of blow-by gases and soot than just venting it into a hose and relying on blow-by pressure to
get rid of it.

I would agree with this in theory... I did have a fairly high (to my own useless opinion) amount of CCV flow, but I didn't actually have the EHM until engine #2. The CCV puck also has a flapper seal inside it, so that when the turbo is really spooling (and the engine might be creating the most blow-by) that seal is actually sucked closed. It seals the valve cover when the turbo is under some amount of higher boost.

I don't know why it is designed in that way.

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DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:13 pm

Well, had no clue about that. So that is where the EHM has an advantage in terms of keeping crankcase pressure to a minimum. (Most racing engines with drysump systems have extra scavenge capacity to pull a vacuum at high revs. This increases HP a little and typically helps the rings stay at their peak as long as possible.

DOC

kjjet · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:21 am

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

Recently we tore down a couple CRD engines for timing belts, etc.

Engine 1
0w-40 Mobil1 (Chrysler spec oil) at 80,000 miles
**Owner had oil changed every 5,000miles**
One #4 exhaust valve failed and ruined the cylinder
Al 16 rocker arms showed serious wear issues
Engine wasted!
No engine tune

Engine 2
5W-40 all its life, the last 50,000miles with 5W-40 Mobil1 diesel truck oil
engine had 104,000miles on it
No wear noticed on any of the rocker arms, they look at good as new
The last 50,000 miles had GDE ECO tune and HOT tune

We are leaning more toward the 0W-40 oil as being garbage and would definitely recommend people change to a 5W-40 diesel rated oil and a 10W-40 or 15W-40 during the summer months.

For sure reducing the soot in the oil will be beneficial, but the data is starting to point more towards oil quality being the root cause with failing rocker arms. How much is your engine worth to you?

GDE...I see your findings but I would like to see a engine running on 0w-40 with one of your tunes for most or all of its life. Like your #2 engine. I beleve you will fine little to no indication of worn rockers.

I will have to see more than just 1 or 2 engines with out a EGR in use to get me to switch from 0w-40. The oil tests on it are great after it was run for more than 7000 miles. I along with a mobil engineer beleve the 0w-40 protects the bearings better upon starting. No changes for me just yet.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:51 am

What I find interesting is that engines show rocker wear, but not main bearing wear or turbo bearing wear. Moreoever, in my engine, some rockers were severely worn while others were virtually new, and this was true for both intake and exhaust. Puzzling.

There is no doubt that soot is at the root of the problem, but why the variation in the same engine? Possible variation in the rocker rollers? Out of spec cams? Variation in oil flow? Intake and exhaust rockers each have their own gallery, yet there was significant variation in each one.

What I know now is that there clearly is a need for reduction in soot load, especially supplemental filtration; I plan to change TBs every 60k miles, and check the rockers each time I do. Worn ones will be replaced. I will also mic the cams to see what those look like, and I am going to carefully examine the cam/rocker oiling situation.

Hexus · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:18 am

The most significant damage in mine was at Piston #3. I noted that that is where the EGR elbow attaches to the Valve cover. I think if you'll look really hard at all of the engines with significant wear, you will find that this is the area of the MOST (not all obviously) but definitely the MOST damage across the engine.

It's no coincidence.

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:49 pm

Does oil weight make much difference if we're talking about all -40s? That's all 40 weight at temp. Seems like it would only chang cold start lubrication to switch between 0w, 5w, etc.

My experience with oil is like geordi's. No significant change in color running the segr and still the same running segr and gde fte. I change every 6250 with 5w40 amsoil prem diesel oil.

kjjet · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:33 pm

ChesterCRD wrote:

Does oil weight make much difference if we're talking about all -40s? That's all 40 weight at temp. Seems like it would only chang cold start lubrication to switch between 0w, 5w, etc.

My experience with oil is like geordi's. No significant change in color running the segr and still the same running segr and gde fte. I change every 6250 with 5w40 amsoil prem diesel oil.

It took 3 5k oil changes after the GDE tune and EGR system was removed until the oil remained cleaner. Using 0W-40 & standard size Fram extra guard filter. (no egr, no cooler, no FCV, no egr pipes, caped exhaust manifold, caped intake elbo. Done)

I plan on taking the intake off at the next T-Belt change to inspect the rockers. One timing belt cycle with a GDE tune and 5k oil changes. "if it makes it that far?" Trying to test air flow may not tell you if one or two are bad.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:26 am

Just curious if anyone outside the US has had this issue? I am really leaning towards the excessive soot the EGR dumps into the engine as well. I imagine the 2.5L overseas engines do not run an EGR or it is not regulated the same way due to less stringent standards.

It is my understanding (mainly just a guess) that the CRD engine was adapted after the fact in a very poor attempt to meet the US emission standards. Just the fact that it has a MAF sensor with the only function being to control the EGR valve to me states it was an afterthought. I could be wrong and maybe this is the way VM designed it, but I doubt it.

It also makes me worry for the future of the 6cyl diesel they will be putting in the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokees and the 1/2 ton Dodge Rams.

I myself plan to get a lower mileage 2006 5.9L 4 door Ram with out all the emissions crap when we get back to the states. This seems to be the only real solution to wanting economy and 4x4 though not nearly as economical as the KJ it would suffice.

Keith, if you're listening to this...I want a tune for the 06 and back 5.9L Cummins and I KNOW I'm not the only one. You NEED to do a tune for these!!! Put me on the list!

- Mark

kjjet · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:55 am

kapalczynski wrote:

Just curious if anyone outside the US has had this issue? I am really leaning towards the excessive soot the EGR dumps into the engine as well. I imagine the 2.5L overseas engines do not run an EGR or it is not regulated the same way due to less stringent standards.

It is my understanding (mainly just a guess) that the CRD engine was adapted after the fact in a very poor attempt to meet the US emission standards. Just the fact that it has a MAF sensor with the only function being to control the EGR valve to me states it was an afterthought. I could be wrong and maybe this is the way VM designed it, but I doubt it.

It also makes me worry for the future of the 6cyl diesel they will be putting in the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokees and the 1/2 ton Dodge Rams.

I myself plan to get a lower mileage 2006 5.9L 4 door Ram with out all the emissions crap when we get back to the states. This seems to be the only real solution to wanting economy and 4x4 though not nearly as economical as the KJ it would suffice.

Keith, if you're listening to this...I want a tune for the 06 and back 5.9L Cummins and I KNOW I'm not the only one. You NEED to do a tune for these!!! Put me on the list!

- Mark

Hi Mark As far as i know these engines have been in use for years before they were put in a KJ with a EGR. No... they have not had the issues with rockers that we have here in the US. I'm not sure where the EGR is used other than the US, but there is also a differance in oil types and Diesel fuels.

As far as 2006 Cummins your planing on getting. They are great engines but they do have a EGR system. But the 2006 dose not have a DFP.

Good luck

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

The rocker arm failures could be soot related or oil type related...it could also be a combination of the two. Without a larger sample size of engine failures and known maintenance practices, it will be difficult to isolate the root cause.

In Europe, Africa and Australia rocker failures are virtually non existent. The two main differences are the oil specified and quantity of EGR. VM engines have been using EGR since the nineties in some applications. The US model for sure uses the most EGR at about double the rate. The VM engines from 2000-2007 specified a diesel engine oil CG or better, some where even CF. In summer months, 10W-30/40 or 15W-30/40 were recommended. In cooler weather a 5W-xx was acceptable.

As the fleet ages, these issues will pop up more. The data gathered will be very helpful.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:12 pm

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

The rocker arm failures could be soot related or oil type related...it could also be a combination of the two. Without a larger sample size of engine failures and known maintenance practices, it will be difficult to isolate the root cause.

In Europe, Africa and Australia rocker failures are virtually non existent. The two main differences are the oil specified and quantity of EGR. VM engines have been using EGR since the nineties in some applications. The US model for sure uses the most EGR at about double the rate. The VM engines from 2000-2007 specified a diesel engine oil CG or better, some where even CF. In summer months, 10W-30/40 or 15W-30/40 were recommended. In cooler weather a 5W-xx was acceptable.

As the fleet ages, these issues will pop up more. The data gathered will be very helpful.

After I buy the rockers from you and replace them, I'll update this post with my findings. That's a promise

.

CRD rocker arm wear...more info

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