Did I Blow My Engine?

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:09 pm

So here is the long story short:

I knew I must have had a small leak because my antifreeze was disappearing. I added more and it was no big deal. A while later I lost all heat (ice cold) in the cab and my car overheated. I knew it shuts it self off so I pulled over just as it started the warning chimes and I let it cool down. Added coolant....no big deal....ran it for a good while (month or two).

Last night I noticed a loss of heat again and it started to overheat but the gauge never reached all the way to the point where it gives a warning chime, just very close. I let it run until the gauge dropped then cooled down enough to pour room temp. coolant in it. It was then I noticed it was leaking coolant. Before I could not find a leak at all. I was very close to home to I decided to drive.

I was almost home when I lost heat again. The temperate gauge was at midway point when the engine turned off. I let it cool down just in case it shut itself off from being overheated, but the gauge was only in the middle so I doubted this. When I tried to start it it cranked about 2 times then made a horrible spinning noise similar to when your starter is not working (obviously though, not the issue..but similar in sound). I tried the simple stuff like bleeding the fuel filter, etc, just for the heck of it. Still didn't work.

So it was towed to a dealer. The dealer says I was leaking coolant from the water pump but the noise is from the engine. He says probably needs another engine. He didn't seem keen on the rebuild idea, saying it takes long hours of labor and parts could be scarce as well as expensive. They said I could be looking at $4k for a used CRD engine. It will sit there over the weekend while I decide what to do.

I called another mechanic shop who said dealers will probably be much higher and might try to charge me for all kinds of things. They said the could replace my engine for $4,800 including parts and labor. The used engine they found cost $4,000 itself so the labor isn't too bad. It would be nice to find a cheaper engine though, I'm not sure if other VM 2.8L engines would work with the Liberty or not.

As for fixing the engine itself, the other shop said it would probably be around $1,900 in labor but the rest would depend on what was broken in the engine once they took it apart and availability of parts...which I'm really scared of for the CRD model.

Really not sure what to do here, but this situation SUCKS.

UFO · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:39 pm

It doesn't sound good. From my experience, the gauge is not a reliable method of determining engine temperature when you are low on coolant, as the sensor relies on immersion to report. So you may have overheated the engine and the computer would not have been able to shut it down because the coolant level was below the sensor.

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:07 pm

Was the exhaust smoke white?

You may have a failed water pump... Which could lead to rocker/lifter issues if not more.

You won't know until you or someone else looks.

Your mechanic doesn't know what they're talking about in my opinion. $4k is a parted out CRD engine, not even a rebuild or crate. You're taking your chances there too.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:43 pm

I would think a little more troubleshooting needs done before changing a engine. Thats a dealer for you.

Where do you live? There may be someone close to help you?

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:50 pm

Hexus wrote:

Was the exhaust smoke white?

You may have a failed water pump... Which could lead to rocker/lifter issues if not more.

You won't know until you or someone else looks.

Your mechanic doesn't know what they're talking about in my opinion. $4k is a parted out CRD engine, not even a rebuild or crate. You're taking your chances there too.

Well the dealer even says the water pump needed to be replaced also. So I guess it could have failed?

The only time I have ever seen white smoke was when I first started the engine. Then it went away. Come to think of it, it was happening recently.

I really don't know what to do now...

kjjet wrote:

I would think a little more troubleshooting needs done before changing a engine. Thats a dealer for you.

Where do you live? There may be someone close to help you?

I live in Baltimore, MD. I think I might end up having it towed to another mechanic.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:30 pm

The other mechanic I talked to says he doesn't think the dealer really wants to bother with diagnosing the engine problem and/or fixing it. He says that it's entirely possible it could be something fixable like the head or other things. I'm thinking about towing it to this guy because even if it does need to be replaced, at least he would do it much cheaper then a dealer.

thermorex · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:36 pm

Don't even bother with dealers unless its a safety recall, since that's at least free. I think on one side they have bad techs, on the other side they just don't care, since the customer pays for their incompetence/lack of skills and knowledge I'd get the books (fsm) and the required tools and start learning/fixing on my own, if you can afford the time and having the car unavailable for a while.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:37 pm

Some guys are telling me it would me more expensive in the long run to fix the engine, as it would be a temporary problem since heat probably warped things.

Others are saying that I should try to have it fixed and that the dealer just doesn't feel like going through the trouble when they can easily put a new one in.

I'm not sure what to do here...

naturist · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:15 pm

Without actually taking the engine apart, of course, everyone is merely guessing.

Frankly, given the ease with which this engine warps and cracks the head when overheating, I don't hold out any hope at all that your head is useful for more than a core as a swap for a rebuilt head. Or a boat anchor. Given that the going rate for new head and head gasket (along with water pump and timing belt and tensioners -- no sense not doing them too while you are at it) is around $3500 parts and labor, an engine swap might be in order if the damage extends beyond the head.

This is not an engine you want to allow to overheat. When the heat went away, that's a sign that you are running with no coolant whatever in the head. This being an aluminum head engine, that's pretty much fatal, the head is toast. At the least, it's warped, almost certainly cracked, maybe even melted in places.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:22 pm

looks like I'm screwed either way

Hexus · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:08 am

The dealer couldn't possibly know it was a water pump issue unless they started taking it apart. The water pump is behind the timing belt cover. I suppose if they took the bottom radiator hose off and ran a camera inside it... no, that's just silly.

My advice, let a TRUSTED mechanic start tearing into it, at least see what you are dealing with before you make your decision. Obviously you aren't equipped to deal with it yourself so see what the mechanic says and bounce everything off of us. Should be a couple hours labor.

We would also be happy to talk with your mechanic, point him/her to the boards here so they don't have such a steep learning curve. Remember there are a bunch of us here who have done rebuilds on these engines for problems similar to yours.

Get them a copy of the Field Service Manual, that will go a long way and it's downloadable from the Noob Guide.

Take a deep breath, relax.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:21 am

MedicPatriot wrote:

looks like I'm screwed either way

Used heads are available for under 7 bills. Parts etc for the WP/TB are under 6 bills.
ARP studs to preclude a recurrence are 3 bills or a little more. A head gasket is about 150.

For less than 2 k you can fix this. I am in the DC metro area and can coach you.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:54 pm

I had another thought after reading this

" If the water pump was leaking it was more than likely the shaft seal. If the seal has gone, water will have got into the water pump bearings, this may have caused the water pump to seize. If the water pump is driven by the camshaft drive belt the starter motor will struggle to turn over the engine. Trying too much will, at best, flatten the battery. Then the starter motor may burn out, the cam belt may loose a few teeth and slip, causing the pistons to bend any valves that are open, cracking the cylinder head or snapping the camshaft along with all the associated problems (all very expensive). "

I know it's merely guessing without seeing it. I am having it towed to a legit mechanic, but since I can't stop thinking about it I figured I may as well post about it, haha.

naturist · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:34 pm

Here's hoping the "real" mechanic to which it is being towed does right by you, AND that the predictions of doom prove premature.

And for what it's worth, a lot of engines these days use aluminum heads on cast iron blocks. They all share the characteristic of not tolerating overheating. They will all at least blow the head gasket in that event. Gone are the days when you could overheat an engine because both head and block were iron. So whatever you drive, if you start losing coolant, or overheating, you need to get the issue found and fixed as early in the cycle as possible lest the expense mount on you.

And I got a rebuilt head from Moparpartsonline.com last June for $800 after core charge refund. The head comes with valves installed, btw.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:31 am

naturist wrote:

Here's hoping the "real" mechanic to which it is being towed does right by you, AND that the predictions of doom prove premature.

And for what it's worth, a lot of engines these days use aluminum heads on cast iron blocks. They all share the characteristic of not tolerating overheating. They will all at least blow the head gasket in that event. Gone are the days when you could overheat an engine because both head and block were iron. So whatever you drive, if you start losing coolant, or overheating, you need to get the issue found and fixed as early in the cycle as possible lest the expense mount on you.

And I got a rebuilt head from Moparpartsonline.com last June for $800 after core charge refund. The head comes with valves installed, btw.

The problems I am most scared of are the ominous warnings from another mechanic who says even if they head is fixable, that everything else has probably warped inside in some way or another.

naturist · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:11 am

I've been told that fixing that head is beyond the capability of most shops. You can't just mill it flat if it is warped. And while I don't know what else might be warped, you did overheat it big time, so I suppose it is possible other ugliness might be present.

From accounts here, it appears to me that these heads crack as much as warp. And a crack is also beyond most shop's ability. I don't hold out much hope for anything less than a complete head replacement.

Still, other warpages fall into the "hope that's not you" category.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:41 pm

UPDATE:

Mechanic says I blew a head gasket for sure. He also says the timing belt "jumped." Says I will have to have the whole timing assembly swapped, and the head sent off to be machined and such most likely.

I don't think they actually pulled the head yet, because it was implied that he would find out about internal engine damage once he actually pulls the head. He says he does NOT think the engine is going to be fried.

He also said there could be valve and rocker (or lifter?) damage that we will find out about soon.

What do you make of this?

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:32 pm

I replied to you PM.. Dose not sound like he has done much T/S yet. Or is he going to just tear it down.

kjjet · **Posted:** Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:34 pm

Did he try to turn the engine over by hand?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:12 pm

What 'timing assembly' is he referring to?

We don't have anything like that, and I seriously doubt that the timing jumped just because you ran it out of coolant.

Head gasket, yes, that is probably toast. Valve damage? Doubtful, but a new head comes with new valves already seated, so no problems there. Rockers? I'd change them anyway since you will be in there, and it is only $325 from IDparts right now. Cams / valve cover? Those are probably just fine, unless the cams are marked from lifter / rocker damage, which I don't see happening. There aren't any water jackets in the valve cover section, so any heating wouldn't bother the top - It is aluminum just the same as the head.

I'm starting to be wary of your mechanic, he is claiming things that he couldn't know unless he had done the full tear-down already... Which he obviously hasn't done. The timing setup has exactly 4 critical components... None of which will be damaged if the timing belt breaks or jumps. What is he talking about?

Did I Blow My Engine?

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