Diagnosis on car for sale...2006 CRD Liberty

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:57 am

I'm looking at a 2006 Liberty CRD with 93,500 miles on it. I missed buying the $10k one about a month ago with 37k miles on it. :furious:

When I walked onto the lot, a saleswoman came out to see if I needed any help. When I told her I was interested in the Liberty, she grabbed my arm in a concerned manner and said "Walk away, you don't want that one! It gets horrible mileage, has a battery drain, and is a 'rattlebox'! We're putting it on the next auto auction!"
I told her I had just looked at one last weekend at another dealer that got sold out from under me, and I had been reading up on them online, AND MIGHT STILL BE INTERESTED even though it had its problems. So I turn to you guys to help me diagnose the issues, without the car in front of me, and without giving away how minor the problems might (Hopefully!) be.

If they're minor enough problems, I'm going to lowball them and hopefully take the car home with a big smile on my face! The advertised price is $13.9k, I want to offer them $6 or $7k, especially if I suspect it could be the timing belt. I don't really know anyone in the used car industry, but I'd imagine they could end up getting $4-5k at auction.

It has a battery drain, if left for 3 days, it won't start. Dealer put a new battery in it, but still the same problem.
Easy enough to diagnose once it's my car. It has an aftermarket security system and towing package. I can hook up an amp clamp and start pulling fuses until the load disappears. Then it's just a matter of tracing wiring from there until I find insulation worn through and a wire grounding out...or continuity of a positive wire to frame. Could very well be the trailer wiring. Seems to be a common problem on Liberty's.

Next issue - engine rattle.
I haven't heard the engine run yet, but they'll have the battery charged tomorrow so I can hear if it's an inner or outer engine noise, or if the alternator clutch pulley has gone out, or something simple like that. The car has obviously rear ended another car and gotten a new bumper, but not a new grill or headlight - as the mounts are broken. The engine shroud cover is held down by the oil filler cap and the rubber boots underneath have all pulled out or been poked through by the balls underneath, so that could be rattling too. Could there be turbo issues rearing their ugly head and causing a rattling noise? I'm guessing this will end up being a bad motor mount or a loose bolt, but what else should I check? Especially in conjunction with the next issue.

Low MPG - the guy who traded it in said it was getting 15mpg and lacked the power he expected from a diesel.
Could the timing belt have slipped a tooth but still leave the engine running? Could it be as easy as the CCV Valve getting clogged or a clogged fuel filter?

There is a CEL that keeps coming on, no matter how many times her technicians turn it off. She thinks she remembers them saying it indicated an O2 sensor, but they told her a diesel engine doesn't have an O2 sensor. They're Ford techs so they don't work on VM Diesels and she says they glare at her whenever she has brought the car into the service bays.
I don't hold out much hope for this being on when I test drive it tomorrow, as the battery has been dead for a while, but I have my bluetooth OBD2 scanner and the Torque app for my android phone, so I should be able to pull any codes it gives.

Thanks for all your help guys! I've really enjoyed lurking and reading for the last 6 months or so and I'm looking forward to one day joining the proud club of Jeep CRD owners!

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:39 am

Sounds interesting.

I agree on the electrical - the mods are suspect and hopefully not too difficult to trace.

On the noise - common at that mileage would be the alternator clutch.. possibly also causing premature problems with the tensioner, so check all the accessory (external) idlers while you're at it.

Alternative might be noise due to EGR/FCV, which would cause odd sounding operation that might be called noise and would also account for mileage. Could also be air-in-fuel..

Mileage can also be decreased considerably if the brake calipers are sticking - boots crack, water gets to the pistons, rust causes sticking, pistons ride against the calipers instead of retracting...

Yes, motor mounts could cause the noise too, or loose exhaust hangers. Ought to take it for a drive and listen.

The codes, if you can get it, might help us narrow down the likely cause. We know it's not O2 - so that same code in the diesel CEL list may give you a hint.

Any mods you can discern? ORM, SEGR, F37, fuel pump, updated fuel-filter head assy, or ?

Mark

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

Definitely low ball them on this vehicle. $6k is a good price. I would be very concerned about rocker arm where due to the low fuel economy. Even if you have to drop $2,000 in parts and some labor, it will still be worthwhile.

13.9k with engine noises, bad fuel economy and 93,000 miles? The CRD is not worth that amount! Not even close.

Hexus · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:53 am

Battery Drain like that is either (most likely) the Alternator (they go out about here) or the ASD relay which goes bad about here as well.

EGR is definitely shot at this point, though that isn't really the cause of a lot of noise. If the EGR has been going for 90k, Rockers are probably shot, even with proper maintenance.

Another arguing point for your low price bid would be that the timing belt, tensioner, idlers, etc. are all due at 100k and this thing is obviously getting close.

I would argue that it's going to need a new EGR, New FCV (Lie because you're going to use this money for a GDE Tune anyways), new Rockers/Lifters ($1k at dealer prices just in parts here), new glow plugs at this mileage (you need to get the original ceramics OUT), plus labor for all these things.

Good luck.

naturist · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:54 am

I would also replace all the hoses, especially the induction system air hoses, as these might be the source of the low power, bad mileage, any whooshing noises, and even the check engine light. They are also due about now simply because of age.

Since it was clearly incompletely repaired from the obvious accident, I'd also have a close look at the radiator, AC condenser, and oil cooler. These are easily damaged, and it just might be that they have been pushed back against the fan, another possible source of bad noises as well as possible damage. While you are poking around under there, take a close look at the coolant tank. There is a small overflow partition on the far side toward the driver, but it's hard to see. The main part of the coolant tank should be full of red coolant, and the overflow partition should be empty. If the overflow is full, and especially if the coolant is not full or not red, this suggests that there might be head gasket problems owing to overheating issues. Watch the coolant tank while the engine is idling for bubbles. Also, before you start it up, take off the coolant tank cap to check for pressure. It should NOT be pressurized while cold, and pressure suggests a blown head gasket.

And yes, I absolutely agree that $13K is way, way over priced, even if it were in perfect running order. But, if you are willing to do some work and put some parts in it, and if you can get it for $6K or thereabouts, it might be worth it.

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:30 am

Well, I live in Hawaii, so no need for glow plugs unless 59 degree temperatures will affect starting or the ceramics will cause problems with warm weather starts.

Oh yeah, and there was a piece of rat poop next to the oil fill cap, so there are possibilities of rodent damage under the hood too. Another bargaining point.

After seeing the saleswoman hook up the little battery box jump starter, I have reread a bit about jumping these CDRs and there are a few posts stating that you're supposed to recharge a dead battery, not jump start it, or you risk frying the TCM and BCM.

There are some horror stories about the TCM throwing an error code stating it no longer communicates and the computer is thrown into Manual transmission mode...taxing the TC and eventually leading to failure there. I'll mention this and pull the manual out of the glovebox to show her that she might have destroyed the computer. Now I just need to convince her that the CEL might be lack of communication with the TCM and need for a new computer! Hopefully that's not the case, but I can always get a new torque converter that can handle the diesel power.

Anyone have a link to the CEL numbers for a diesel engine?

Thanks,
Jon

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:01 pm

I drove it. Took them hooking a Mustang up to it via jumper cables for 1/2 an hour to get it to start.

There's a little chirp to the engine, consistent with seeing the tensioner pulley wiggle, so I think the Alternator Pulley Clutch is going out.

It still has plenty of power! It hauled stupid up the steepest hill we could find and first gear kept it under 20mph going back down that same hill. (Hill was nothing compared to the 40% grade of my driveway!)

The A/C only works on fan setting 4. The radio knob works about 1/3 of the time.

The oil was jet black (she says they change the oil right away on all their trade-ins) Could it be that black in 1,000 test drive miles?

The LowCool message came on as we drove up the hill and I stopped to check the coolant. It was a little below the low mark and was flowing in from the heater return hose (well, the hose that said "Heater" on it anyway.)

She told me that the sales manager gave the guy (a close personal friend) $10,000 in trade for the vehicle...I told her it would likely take about $4k to get this car into reliable condition. When we got back, I washed my hands (Dirty from checking the turbo hose) and when I came out, she was coming out of the sales manager's office with a post-it note in her hand. He offered it to me for $9600 (with tax, title, and fees, came out to $10,200). I said Thanks, I'll think about it and will call you tomorrow to know if it started or if the battery was already dead!

I think it's worth about $8500, but would rather get it for under $8,000 (I'm trading my current car that I'm upside down on the loan in. So that's going to add about $5,000 to the total.) If everything was wrong with it that was suggested here, it might cost that $4000 I said. He said he was knocking about $4000 off the $13,990 to get to $9600. I think I'll offer him $7500 and see if we can come in just above $8k. He's taking a risk selling it at auction, especially with the limited popularity of diesels here in Hawaii (Diesel runs about $0.25/gal more than gasoline).

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:16 pm

groelzj wrote:

I drove it. Took them hooking a Mustang up to it via jumper cables for 1/2 an hour to get it to start.

There's a little chirp to the engine, consistent with seeing the tensioner pulley wiggle, so I think the Alternator Pulley Clutch is going out.

It still has plenty of power! It hauled stupid up the steepest hill we could find and first gear kept it under 20mph going back down that same hill. (Hill was nothing compared to the 40% grade of my driveway!)

The A/C only works on fan setting 4. The radio knob works about 1/3 of the time.

The oil was jet black (she says they change the oil right away on all their trade-ins) Could it be that black in 1,000 test drive miles?

The LowCool message came on as we drove up the hill and I stopped to check the coolant. It was a little below the low mark and was flowing in from the heater return hose (well, the hose that said "Heater" on it anyway.)

She told me that the sales manager gave the guy (a close personal friend) $10,000 in trade for the vehicle...I told her it would likely take about $4k to get this car into reliable condition. When we got back, I washed my hands (Dirty from checking the turbo hose) and when I came out, she was coming out of the sales manager's office with a post-it note in her hand. He offered it to me for $9600 (with tax, title, and fees, came out to $10,200). I said Thanks, I'll think about it and will call you tomorrow to know if it started or if the battery was already dead!

I think it's worth about $8500, but would rather get it for under $8,000 (I'm trading my current car that I'm upside down on the loan in. So that's going to add about $5,000 to the total.) If everything was wrong with it that was suggested here, it might cost that $4000 I said. He said he was knocking about $4000 off the $13,990 to get to $9600. I think I'll offer him $7500 and see if we can come in just above $8k. He's taking a risk selling it at auction, especially with the limited popularity of diesels here in Hawaii (Diesel runs about $0.25/gal more than gasoline).

It's worth 2500 to 3000 at the most.... it needs a new head gasket and possibly a new head besides all the other malfunctioning items you mentioned.

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:05 pm

Whoa, is that based on the oil, or the coolant level, or what? The oil wasn't creamy/milkshake looking, so I didn't think that it was a blown headgasket. If it was just from running it with low coolant, I can understand that too, but there was no coolant smell to the exhaust or with the hood open. No pressure on the reservoir.

Thanks for the help, just trying to understand for my own benefit.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:36 pm

Low coolant light is the beginning of a blown head gasket.

You actually removed the cap after the uphill test drive and found that there wasn't any pressure at all under the cap?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:42 pm

racer knows a lot more about bad heads than I do so I won't debate that issue. Comments:
1. if the serp belt tensioner is obviously bouncing, not just barely twitching, the alternator pulley is shot - ding them for a new OEM alternator cost ca. $500+ not including labor. Actual mainland cost less if you can score an Autozone or some such lifetime warranty replacement. Oh and tell them the serp belt tensioner is likely damaged and needs replacement along with the serp belt for $XXX
2. if only fan setting 4 works it likely just needs a new fan solenoid BWD RU1040 (listed for a 2001-2004 Chrysler Sebring) - behind glove box costs ca. $25 but I'd negotiate from it needs a new heater/AC core fan assembly for $XXX
3. black oil - absent a GDE tune in 1,000 miles = yes but did they use the proper synthetic and weight?
4. if hoses (airbox to turbo and CAC) are oily on outside they need replacement cost ca. $350 + labor
5. EGR can be cleaned or "fixed" by GDE tune and FCV can be neutered (just remove butterfly valve) but don't tell them that - tell them they need replacing and discount the cost by ca. $1,500 to cover that.
6. to follow racer's past comments on low coolant IIRC. On a cold engine; crank up and run for like 30 seconds at idle; shut off; open coolant tank top; if lots of pressure comes out the head is leaking so run away or add a head job to the discount.
7. electrical issue - at minimum battery is shot $225+tx for Sears P1 plus whatever is causing the drain say $500
8. at that mileage needs full TB and water pump job - say $1,800 excluding any rocker issue which would add about $1,500 - both prices based on someone else doing the work

Won't comment on engine "rattle" other than to observe I bet they don't "hear" many small diesels.

If you believe what "she" says the manager says he/she gave their best friend in trade then I've got several bridges (one in the design phase from CA to HI) and some waterfront property I want to discuss with you as they are real deals.

Their current asking price is a joke. Asking price for a CRD at about this mileage is about $10K+- depending on condition so the alleged $4K "discount" is barely getting the asking price back to the normal starting point at best.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:49 pm

Yes, but after a 30 second run, even the slightest bit of pressure under the cap indicates a blown head gasket.

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:53 pm

I'll have them start it tonight and see what we find. Any other diagnostics I ought to do while I'm there tonight?

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:17 pm

No, removing the cap was before the test drive. The other salesman who saw me walk onto the lot said they had gotten it running about noon, but had put the Mustang w/jumpers on just in case the battery wasn't fully recharged (didn't occur to me to question why they relied on a mustang via jumper cables vs. the Liberty's own charging system.) The engine was cool when I arrived and didn't have pressure in the reservoir/overflow tank. I don't know how long they ran it that morning when they first got it started.

Thanks again,
Jon

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:54 am

What island are you on? Oahu has diesel cheaper than regular

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:28 am

I'm on the Big Island. Diesel is about 5.29 here and unleaded gas is about 4.49.

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:31 am

Too bad there is not a ferry service or I'd drive over and help you! 4.29 a gallon is cheapest here.

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:52 am

Wow! What a difference! Don't worry though, it's always great to be in the same time zone as someone knowledgeable about the car you're working on!

Thanks!

arengant · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:21 pm

I have been on here long enough that I have absorbed a lot of info, and I did my TB and all the other mods, so if you need help PM me or call me!

JieselDeep · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:22 am

Not sure if I'll be getting this one, it's got a bit to fix up on it before it's a 'reliable' vehicle again, so I gave them an honest price point that I'd take it for. I can understand if they'd rather put it up for auction, but I don't think they battery would be charged when it got to Oahu for auction, so they might take a bigger loss on it than if they sold it to me.

I offered them $6,000 for it and I'm almost afraid that was too much. If I get the Jeep, you'll hear about it!

Thanks for the offer of help! I'm sure I'll take you up on it sometime down the road when I get mine!

If you hear of any for sale on Oahu, PM me ;D

Diagnosis on car for sale...2006 CRD Liberty

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