What are symptoms of worn rocker arms?

Srytrucker · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:37 pm

mark2m wrote:

I inspected my rocker arms when I did my timing belt job and changed my head gasket. I have no play on the roller bearing and the usually wear marks on the rocker tip wear it contacts the valve stem. They were in great shape, I change my oil around the 12k miles mark and use Rotella T6 for over 45k miles at least. GDE Hot Tune and EHM also.

Here they are installed.

Thanks for sharing how hard was it and any more pointers to get it done as I would like to get it done one day

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:03 pm

Srytrucker wrote:

tcoilburner wrote:

I would like to switch back to a good 0W40 for the mileage and the fact the oil will get through the engine on cold starts quicker. :2cents:

That is all good and dandy please let me know if you find any other 0W40 oil besides Mobil1. My point is there are no options.Thanks.

IDparts is selling 'Liqui Moly' 0-40 It's a German brand
(although I'm not sure if it's a Group III (Hydrocracked) or Group IV PAO
- Bob the oil guy has some comments they use the cheaper stuff for the US market)

kjjet · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:53 pm

I think, NO EGR no problem with rockers.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:22 pm

IMO whether it's 0/5/10-40 is not important. The RATING is what matters. Mobil 1 0W-40 is for gassers if you ask me. Use a real DIESEL oil like rotella or m1 tdt which is CI or CJ rated and controls soot better than m1 0w-40. Jeep specified 0w-40 for fuel economy. VM who makes the engine does not recommend it because they don't make real man's diesel oils in that grade.

TJ2 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:50 pm

Glend wrote:

Well for me the 10W40 recommendation is very easy to find, it's sitting right in front of me on page 119 of my Jeep Cherokee Operating Information booklet (aka Owners Manual) which was published by Chrysler Corporation in early 2007, printed in the USA and delivered with my vehicle. (Background: The KJ was produced until the end of April 2007 for the Export market and then the factory shutdown for KK retooling. These KJs were sold in the Export market as a 2007 model, which has a different model change over timeframe to the US market).

On page 119 of my manual it says:

"Engine Oil Selection - Diesel Engines

To assure of properly formulated engine oils, it is recommended that SAE grade 10W-40 engine oils that meet DaimlerChrysler MS-6395 be used in accordance with ACEA B3,B4 specification.....Oils of SAE 5W-40 grade are preferred when the minimum temperatures consistently fall below -15C (5F)."

[url]It makes no mention of 0W-40 grade oils.[/url]

Further, I have emailed VM Motori asking them what oil specification was recommended by their engineers when the R 428 was developed.

Also, the 2.5 L version of this engine is used the LTI produced London Taxi, the TX4 model. The LTI TX4 owners handbook pdf file, which can be downloaded from here
http://www.coventry.gov.uk/download/dow ... ndbook_tx4

on page 57, specifies 10W40 (in the main) but also says that 5W40 or even 0W40 can be used where extreme cold start ability or improved fuel economy is required. There are LTI TX4 forums and I can't find any concerns about rockers mentioned on there.

Glend, I respect your knowledge and overall level headedness. But when you come to Lostjeeps.com you need to remember were you are. This isn't the Aussie forum. The info you casually throw out IS NOT AVAILABLE in the US.

The API ratings for compression ignition oils will apply to any diesel engine. The ACEA specs for diesels post 2007 do not vary between gassers and diesels. The ACEA broke away from the American Petroleum Institute in the 90's because their longer OCI's were not being properly addressed (in their opinion). Their E7 designation is for EGR. . . their E9 is for DPF.

Syrtrucker: what is apparent knowledge to you regarding oil and EGR simply means you're a noob and haven't been around for the trial and error that led to your easily acquired wisdom.

Compression ignition oil is NOT backwards compatible. I run RT6 in my TDI. I am one hell of a lot fonder of that engine that I am the VM.

I do run a CI-4 Plus in the VM. . . it's a safeguard for an engine of questionable oiling capacity and dubious overall engineering.

I HAVE NEVER put 0-anthing in any engine I've owned. . . and I've owned many since the first in 1964.

People like to talk. . . man do we love to talk.

Glend · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:32 am

The only reason I was commenting at all was that Keith (GDE) asked me (directly via email) to investigate what was happening regarding this problem in the Australian environment (the largest Jeep market outside the US, and where the KJ CRD was sold continuously from the 2002 model year through the 2007 year - six model years). The fact that there are differing oil specifications that came out of Jeep for the same vehicles in different markets could be a factor. I am happy to leave all further research on this topic to you TJ2.

Srytrucker · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:21 am

Quote:

Syrtrucker: what is apparent knowledge to you regarding oil and EGR simply means you're a noob and haven't been around for the trial and error that led to your easily acquired wisdom.

People like to talk. . . man do we love to talk.

Whatever i did to offend you or you just woke up on the wrong side of bed today?
I am a noob and i never claimed otherwise , besides i have read up on people's experiences here and can make sense of some numbers by UOA reports.
Last time i checked this country had freedom of speech and expression besides the point of this forum is learn by each others experiences and exchange ideas or did i get that wrong ?

Hexus · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:29 am

mark2m wrote:

I inspected my rocker arms when I did my timing belt job and changed my head gasket. I have no play on the roller bearing and the usually wear marks on the rocker tip wear it contacts the valve stem. They were in great shape, I change my oil around the 12k miles mark and use Rotella T6 for over 45k miles at least. GDE Hot Tune and EHM also.

Here they are installed.

Well, that's either a new/rebuilt head or you did a VERY good job cleaning it up.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:09 pm

Srytrucker wrote:

tcoilburner wrote:

I would like to switch back to a good 0W40 for the mileage and the fact the oil will get through the engine on cold starts quicker. :2cents:

That is all good and dandy please let me know if you find any other 0W40 oil besides Mobil1. My point is there are no options.Thanks.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_GTDS_Shell_Rotella_T6_0W-40_%28CJ-4%29_%28en%29_TDS.pdf

Now available at your local Canadian Tire in Canada. It apprears this is a full synthetic version instead of that synthetic blend 0-40 they sold there before.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:54 pm

tcoilburner wrote:

Before we all blame the 0W40 CF rated oil, I have had no problems with it for the first 90,000 miles, can any one tell us the additive difference between a CF and CJ4 rated oil? Just because it is newer does not mean it is better, remember the goverment is coming up with this regulation. Does one or the other rating have more antiwear additive than the other (Known for sure). I has been my understanding that the goverment has been removing stuff for the oil for aleast the last 7 or 8 years?

The only think I know for sure is last late summer the CF rating on the Mobil1 0W40 was removed. So I switched the last oil change I did in December to Delvac1 5W40. The only problem I have seen with it is, it cost me about 2 mpg driving back and forth to work durring the week. I only am up to operating temp for a mile or two max. On long trips it only has change rough a 1 mpg. I would like to switch back to a good 0W40 for the mileage and the fact the oil will get through the engine on cold starts quicker. :2cents:

Q- have you checked the wear on your rockers?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:59 pm

mark2m wrote:

I inspected my rocker arms when I did my timing belt job and changed my head gasket. I have no play on the roller bearing and the usually wear marks on the rocker tip wear it contacts the valve stem. They were in great shape, I change my oil around the 12k miles mark and use Rotella T6 for over 45k miles at least. GDE Hot Tune and EHM also.

Here they are installed.

Off topic, I see you installed head studs. Are they ARP studs? When did you put them in?

Big Montana · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:56 pm

Hexus wrote:

mark2m wrote:

I inspected my rocker arms when I did my timing belt job and changed my head gasket. I have no play on the roller bearing and the usually wear marks on the rocker tip wear it contacts the valve stem. They were in great shape, I change my oil around the 12k miles mark and use Rotella T6 for over 45k miles at least. GDE Hot Tune and EHM also.

Here they are installed.

Well, that's either a new/rebuilt head or you did a VERY good job cleaning it up.

I was thinking the same thing. Can we take a number? I would love to know what mine looks like before a cleaning.

spoon · **Posted:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:06 pm

Could you list the gaskets, ect. needed to get to the rockers. Did you remove the intake elbow and if so how gunked up was it.

mark2m · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:04 am

Srytrucker wrote:

Thanks for sharing how hard was it and any more pointers to get it done as I would like to get it done one day[/quote]

A few forum members have done great jobs on documenting the process here. Here are just a few thought.
Taking the intake off and getting to the rockers isn't to bad but you do need to take a lot apart for easier access. I didn't use any special tools other than the timing pin kit and a sprocket buster. I did get plenty of use from my long extensions. I pinned the crank with a drill bit and later realized I had it pinned 180* out after I removed the head from my engine. I had no problems putting it back together that way also. The cams can only be pinned in one position and an easy way to line up the intake cam pin is to looked through the oil fill cap and you can see the recess where the pin will sit and get it pretty close. You will have to ever so gently turn the crank back and forth s little bit to get it to screw in nice and freely. Once you get the intake cam pinned the exhaust will be lined up also.

I found once I removed the head all the piston were even in their bores. So if you are 180* off it makes no difference on reassembly. You won't crunch a valve or anything. Also do not turn the engine over with the head removed if you do go to that extreme. There is the possibility of pushing the liners out of the block if the crank is turned and there is no need to anyway.

As you can see in those pictures quite a bit of junk is caught around the fuel injectors pockets. Vacuum cleaner and air gun to blow as much out as possible. I would cracked the fuel lines at the rail first and you won't end up with as much fuel washing down past the injector and into the cylinder. My injectors pulled right out without to much trouble. Couple points with the injectors. Be careful when removing the spring clip from the top of the injector. It is easy to loose them and they are expensive. I used a pick to pull one of the side of the clip and then the other and worked them off slowly. With a rag to catch it if it popped off. The return fuel lines are nothing but plastic nipples pushed into the top of the injector. They are easy to break.

Get as much stuff from over the top of the engine and sides to make is easier to pull the intake straight up. It will be more crucial when reinstalling so you do not want to knocked the lifters off the valves. The fuel rail line gets in the way and if you just break the lower b-nut it can be just moved to the side.

The alignment dowels I made from cutting the head off a bolt didn't work to well at first. I needed to cut them way down to clear the Intake Assy and drop down. Use 2 or so down the center of the head. The trans dip stick gets in the way.

Simple but stupid thing. Connect the plugs to the turbo vacuum canister before bolting it down or support it well when reconnecting. I broke one of the mounting feet of by pushing it a little to hard. You'll see what I mean.

I guess that is it for now.

HTH
Mark

mark2m · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:13 am

Hexus wrote:

Well, that's either a new/rebuilt head or you did a VERY good job cleaning it up.

Thanks but it is the original head. I took my time and really tried to make sure I had everything nice and clean before reassembly. I used lots of carb cleaner sprayed generously on a rag and wiped it down.

Block all nice and cleaned up.

Cool shot of the valves

head again with bolt numbered

mark2m · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:23 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

mark2m wrote:

I inspected my rocker arms when I did my timing belt job and changed my head gasket. I have no play on the roller bearing and the usually wear marks on the rocker tip wear it contacts the valve stem. They were in great shape, I change my oil around the 12k miles mark and use Rotella T6 for over 45k miles at least. GDE Hot Tune and EHM also.

Here they are installed.

Off topic, I see you installed head studs. Are they ARP studs? When did you put them in?

You are correct sir. I followed your lead and replaced the TTY bolts with ARP studs when I changed my head gasket. I torqued to your revised numbers of 130 & 125 in 5 steps. I did not have the glow plugs installed when torquing the head down and they screwed in freely with just my fingers.
About 800 miles on it and all is well so far.

Oh and sorry to be derailing this thread.

mark2m · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:44 am

spoon wrote:

Could you list the gaskets, ect. needed to get to the rockers. Did you remove the intake elbow and if so how gunked up was it.

Hmmmm OK you will need the

intake / valve cover gasket
throttle body
intake elbow
fuel injector copper crush washers and o-rings

I didn't need to replace my intake elbow gasket since it came off cleanly, and the throttle body has an 0-ring to the intake elbow. There is a adapter with a gasket between the front of the throttle body which the intercooler hose mounts to but they two halves stayed together on mine.

I bought all my gaskets from IDparts but the fuel injector crush washers and o-rings.

Mine looked pretty good after 100,000 miles. I was impressed with the condition of it. I still degrease it anyway.

View into the manifold.

One of the intake valves.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:04 am

mark2m wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

Off topic, I see you installed head studs. Are they ARP studs? When did you put them in?

You are correct sir. I followed your lead and replaced the TTY bolts with ARP studs when I changed my head gasket. I torqued to your revised numbers of 130 & 125 in 5 steps. I did not have the glow plugs installed when torquing the head down and they screwed in freely with just my fingers.
About 800 miles on it and all is well so far.

Oh and sorry to be derailing this thread.

Cool!

I had thought that 125 would be enough but not too much for the edge holes based on my experience at 130/140, and it is nice to see that confirmed. Thank you for sharing that information. I would welcome a post by you on the ARP stud thread detailing your experience and any recommendations you might have. Won't talk about studs anymore here. :mrgreen:

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:51 am

Heh, I like your numbering job... I just wrote with sharpie next to each bolt hole right on the head after I cleaned it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

tcoilburner · **Posted:** Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:42 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

tcoilburner wrote:

Before we all blame the 0W40 CF rated oil, I have had no problems with it for the first 90,000 miles, can any one tell us the additive difference between a CF and CJ4 rated oil? Just because it is newer does not mean it is better, remember the goverment is coming up with this regulation. Does one or the other rating have more antiwear additive than the other (Known for sure). I has been my understanding that the goverment has been removing stuff for the oil for aleast the last 7 or 8 years?

The only think I know for sure is last late summer the CF rating on the Mobil1 0W40 was removed. So I switched the last oil change I did in December to Delvac1 5W40. The only problem I have seen with it is, it cost me about 2 mpg driving back and forth to work durring the week. I only am up to operating temp for a mile or two max. On long trips it only has change rough a 1 mpg. I would like to switch back to a good 0W40 for the mileage and the fact the oil will get through the engine on cold starts quicker. :2cents:

Q- have you checked the wear on your rockers?

No, I plan on going to our Chrysler dealership to use there Starscan to check idle air flow in the next couple of weeks (I work in the gm store). Then I will know and can post back. I need to check because I want to get the timing belt changed before it warms up and I start towing agian. I am looking into the Liqui Moly oil I sent them an email last night. :juggle:

What are symptoms of worn rocker arms?

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