Engine surge when stopped! - after tune-ups...?

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:17 am

Hello everyone!

This is my first post so bear with me.

HERE'S THE BASIC JIST: My KJ has recently started experiencing some engine-surging (like it wants to push through the braked stop that is holding it still) when stopped at a stop-light/sign. It only does this when it is cold (meaning that it in hasn't been driven for an hour or so). When the engine surges, the idle drops like it is about to die, guttering while the engine is surging into the braked stop. It only does this while in Drive (when I slip it into Neutral, the engine-surging stops immediately and the idle reverts to normal). This surging only occurs for a couple seconds (while I smash down harder on the brakes because it pushed through them if I'm too light on the brake petal), then it fades back to a normal idle, and the pressure pushing against the braked stop ebbs. This engine-surging will continue until the engine is warmed up. In other words, once it warms up, it doesn't surge anymore.

Below is some history that might help troubleshoot what could have caused it (and it might be too much information so bear with me):

In November of 2012, I purchased this 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited from a private party. The vehicle had 115k miles on it when I bought it, and hardly any historical repair records to show for it (but it ran very well prior to having any work done on it, and I did rough investigation of it's history on CARFAX and talked with the dealership that the prior owner utilized). I knew I would have to have the basic 100k mile work done (Timing Belt, Differential & Transmission fluid, glow plugs, filters, etc), in order to sleep better at night, and so I found a decent Jeep Specific + Diesel shop in the area and took it in (since I'm not a mechanic nor have a garage or shop to work from). Here is the work they did:

* new Timing-Belt/Water-Pump kit
* new Thermostat and Thermostat Housing Assembly
* new Intercooler
* new Glow Plugs & Controller Unit
* new Fuel Filter
* new Oil filter

One day after getting it back from the shop, this happened:
The CRD started taking longer to start/crank-and-turn-over. It took about 4-6 seconds on a fast version of it starting, and between 6-8 seconds on a slower version. Prior to having any of the work done, it always started up within 2 seconds (3-4 cranks), never longer. I made sure to allow the Glow-Plug warmer light to turn off before cranking it over. It drove fine after it started, and so I kept my eyes and ears out for anything unusual. The next day (day 2) it took about 8-10 seconds to start (which made the battery drag a bit), I drove it out of the parking spot, and then everything stopped (engine, electrical lights on the dash, everything). I tried to restart it, but the battery was almost dead at this point and could barely turn over the starter once or twice, before losing all charge. I called the mechanic immediately and explained what happened, and they asked if I could have it towed to them. I called my insurance and had it towed to them. The mechanic spent an hour checking it out and then got it running. He said that he "found a leak at and replaced the fuel-water separator valve gasket and replaced the gasket". He also stated that the battery was in the yellow and that it should be replaced soon, since diesels need more cranking amps. When they sent me on my way, everything seemed fixed. The engine started up within 2 seconds (3-4 cranks) and seemed to be running smooth. I bought a battery that fit the requirements of the CRD and things seemed good.

A month later I figured I should get the rest of the recommended work done, and the suspension/sway-bars were making noise, and so I had them do the following:

* Front & Rear Differential fluids changed
* Transmission fluid changed and Transmission filters (guess there was 2) replaced
* Grease/Lube the sway-bars

I had ordered new tires and had them installed too at a local tire place. They had to do the alignment twice and rotate the tires twice to keep the vehicle from pulling to the right. They stated that they believed the rack & pinion was leaking oil and suggested that it gets replaced. I consulted with my prior mechanic, and he said that it was probably the remaining front differential oil dripping from above down onto the rack and pinion:

* (5) new Tires and Stems, alignment, rotation, & disposal fee

The vehicle continued to make a loud crunching noise when driving out of driveways onto the street and pulling to the right, and so back to the shop it went. We figure out that it was one of the engine mounts, and so they did that work next:

* new Engine Mount installed

A little while after having it home, not only did the long-cranking return slightly, but the engine-surging began to plague my every stop. So I did the following to try and fix it on my own:

* Researched the symptoms, and learned about the dreaded "air-in-the-fuel-line" problems with this CRD - and was able to determine that it does have the 2nd generation Fuel Filter Head (heater plug housing differentiation).
* Cleaned the MAP Sensor
* Bled a lot of air out of the fuel line through the primer nipple, routinely
* Put in a new higher performance Air Filter

To this day, and I've told the mechanic about all the items above, I bleed the fuel-line line every couple days (since it still has air collecting in there somehow), and the engine surge has been getting worse.

I've researched about the ECU/TCM update-flash from the dealership, and that this helped fix someone else's engine-surging issue, yet I'm not sure if it will fix mine.

Would a faulty Glowplugs Controller be causing this (the ones that came with the kit)?

Any suggestions? - I welcome them all.

Please let me know.

Thanks,

Sarma.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:57 am

Looking over your symptoms
1. motor mount is not a big surprise although I'd be inclined to replace both if one is bad. No particular reason but a personal just because.
2. your initial long crank was likely a combination of a dieing battery, "electronic" vehicle systems are rather sensitive to adequate battery juice and a diesel needs more cranking omph than a gasser, and an improperly installed fuel filter. On the latter I'd bet they left the old center gasket on, relatively easy to do, in which case the filter won't tighten up properly will leak and will ingest air.
3. your surging is odd in that it goes away when the engine/tranny warm up. Try this - when it surges keep your foot on the brake but shift the tranny into neutral and observe the rpms. If they go well above idle its an engine related issue. If they sit more or less at idle but there is not surging then it's a tranny issue. If engine related I'd lean toward air in the fuel since you get air when priming every other day. If tranny related I'd have a tranny service done with new filters and only ATF+F and while in there check the plate on the side of the valve body to see if it's fullly seated as a start although it could be tranny line pressure when cold. By the way the 545RFE tranny is very common on DCJ vehicles so an decent tranny place can do the service but if they say any fluid other than ATF+4 will work walk/run away.
4. since you are still getting air in the fuel I'd start looking at where. You might try a bit of clear vinyl tube on the inflow and outflow at the filter head to see if air is just coming in or just going out (NOTE there have been cases where the bleeder screw did not seat right or the primer bulb shaft seal was bad so check those); make sure the primer head hose clamps are snug not godzilla; check the connection at the CP3 fuel pump; check for fuel leaks at the base of the fuel injectors; consider a fuel lift pump install or at least replacing the fuel line quick disconnect fittings with quality marine grade diesel compatible fuel line and appropriate clamps

Read Sir Sam's NOOB guide if you have not already done so and it might be worth a quick double check of the engine timing

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:49 pm

Thanks for your detailed reply papaindigo,

Here are my responses:

1.) "motor mount is not a big surprise although I'd be inclined to replace both if one is bad." = When we determined that the clunking-crunching sound was a bad motor mount, the mechanic checked the other motor mounts and stated that they looked like they were in good condition, and so I simply replaced the one bad mount.

2.) "your initial long crank was likely a combination of a dieing battery, "electronic" vehicle systems are rather sensitive to adequate battery juice and a diesel needs more cranking omph than a gasser, and an improperly installed fuel filter" = I would have to agree with this assessment. "On the latter I'd bet they left the old center gasket on, relatively easy to do, in which case the filter won't tighten up properly will leak and will ingest air." = I wish I knew what the actual cause was, but since the mechanic did all the work and did not show me what he did, I have only his explanation to go on. Knowing everything I know now, I wished I would have done the work myself on this part, since it isn't particularly difficult to do the Fuel Filter change and I could have ensured that it was done correctly and meticulously.

3.) "your surging is odd in that it goes away when the engine/tranny warm up. Try this - when it surges keep your foot on the brake but shift the tranny into neutral and observe the rpms. If they go well above idle its an engine related issue. If they sit more or less at idle but there is not surging then it's a tranny issue." I have tested this (moving it from Drive to Neutral), and I forgot to include the results in my original post: Yes, the engine-surging stops immediately and the idle returns to normal when I shift the transmission into Neutral at a stop (which is what I've been doing regularly until the engine is warmed up). "If tranny related I'd have a tranny service done with new filters and only ATF+F and while in there check the plate on the side of the valve body to see if it's fullly seated as a start although it could be tranny line pressure when cold." = I actually did have this mechanic also do the full Transmission service (* Transmission fluid changed and new Transmission filters (guess there was 2) installed) and he installed a "Filter Set - Contains B-196 & B-200 for the 545RFE Transmission B245" He also used Chrysler AFT+4. So, since the problems started after that, this makes me wonder about whether or not something in his transmission work started these symptoms? I will have to let him know.

4.) "since you are still getting air in the fuel I'd start looking at where." = I will definitely go through all the check-points you listed (clear vinyl tube on the inflow and outflow at the filter head, the bleeder screw seat or the primer bulb shaft seal, the primer head hose clamps are snug, the connection at the CP3 fuel pump, any leaks at the base of the fuel injectors, etc.) ... "consider a fuel lift pump install or at least replacing the fuel line quick disconnect fittings with quality marine grade diesel compatible fuel line and appropriate clamps" = I actually already ordered a lift pump, since I was having so many air-in-the-fuel-line problems, and will install it when it gets here. As far as the marine grade diesel fuel line and clamps - I'll have to check those out and see about getting them too!

I have read through Sam's CRD Noob Guide but it is always good to read it again, and will double check the engine timing as well!

Thanks again papaindigo and hopefully I'll get it figured out soon!

Sarma.

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:47 pm

Could unplugging the MAF Sensor (which I've done), be causing this engine-surging to occur?

I found this article and wonder if it applies to my situation.

http://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/ ... rge?Page=5

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:19 am

You report that cold engine idle is normal when the tranny is in neutral and surges when tranny is in gear. IMHO the tranny is the source of the problem but that's just my opinion. I'm not an automatic tranny person but I'd guess there is a valve or sensor that's causing the tranny to try to engage when you are at a stop. As I recall a good tranny shop should be able to monitor tranny performance and narrow down the problem.

I don't recall but have you cleaned the MAP sensor, back more or less center of engine a bit left of fuel filter head?

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:25 pm

Hey again Papaindigo,

I would agree that the surging issue seems transmission related, yet the ECU translating changes in the injection event and boost (fuel-system/CP3) can effect the transmission responses during idle and at stops (from what I've read). Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Being that I've had work done on the Transmission recently, I have cleaned the MAP Sensor, and I unplugged the MAF ... maybe it could be a combination of these.

I do have an appointment this Friday to bring my vehicle into the mechanic who did the Transmission work and Fuel Filter work / problems, and I will make sure the Transmission fluid levels are good, the connections to the CP3, no-fuel leaks or air ingestion, etc.

If all else fails, I might just bring it in to the stealership, have them reflash/update the ECU & TCM in order to set a baseline of knowing that is set, AND THEN order the GDE Eco Tune.

That may fix this (from what I've read).

On to the next adventure.

Thanks again, and we'll talk soon!

Big Montana · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:19 pm

I hope that you figure this out. I'm only throwing out crazy ideas here, but what about the torque converter or the trans pump? Is it possible that the TC is trying to lock up while stopped? I have no idea what that feels like, but is that even possible? I know that the pump on our transmissions have had problems, and there were also BAD filters that circulated around the globe for our transmissions that caused a lot of problems. I don't know enough about these things, but it sounds like it's trying to engage the clutch.

I just called my brother the Chrysler trans calibrator, and I'll let you know if this sounds like anything he's dealt with.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:10 pm

My brother seems to think it's definitely a cold engine idle issue and it has nothing to do with the transmission. The trans is simply responding to the increase in torque and RPMs from the engine. The TC is fighting the brakes because the torque is overpowering it and engaging it.

There must be a sensor that is trying to rev the engine due to the cold. Could this have something to do with the viscous heater? There is a fuse to pull that would shut it down. That thing stops working when the engine hits a certain temp, so that could be a connection. Is the clutch going out on that thing?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

Next time it does it, put in neutral. If it stops, then the trans needs to be looked at.

Big Montana · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:23 pm

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

Next time it does it, put in neutral. If it stops, then the trans needs to be looked at.

My brother and I stand corrected. I would listen to GDE

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:00 pm

My take on this :

1. The dealer may have messed up the ECU update/...... did they download the software update from Chrysler HQ or did the tech manually finagle the codes using the DRBII.... If so then take it back so that they can correct the mistake.

2. The new transmission work was done inproperly, filters may be bad or have been installed incorrectly.

3. Check the back of the thermostat..... is the connector to the temperature sensor installed properly?

thomas04 · **Joined:** Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:57 pm **Posts:** 129

I feel your pain Brother. I am having the same concerns myself. In fact I have been dealing with this issue since Sept. Thankfully I had purchased a '92 4runner and have been driving that until I can finally solve the issue.

Currently have replaced 1st gen. fuel pump and had a diesel shop check the injectors for possible fuel return issues. However both solutions have not resolved issue. I have now committed myself to installing an in tank fuel pump and replace fuel lines at the tank. Both of which I have waiting to install but have not found the time. Hopefully by the end of the month I will have installed the pump and lines and will be able to pass on a solutions to both of our concerns at the same time.

I will be watching this thread until then to see what others may have to offer.

Peace,

Scott

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:14 am

Yes, the engine-surging stops immediately and the idle returns to normal when I shift the transmission into Neutral at a stop (which is what I've been doing regularly until the engine is warmed up).

From what I'm hearing this means this is transmission related and not engine related?

I'll make sure the mechanic knows that his recent transmission work (normal transmission fluid change with new filters installed) needs to be double checked.

Thanks Big Montana (and your brother), GreenDieselEngineering, Racertracer, and thomas04 for your input ... everything helps!

I'll keep everyone posted when I find out more.

Sarma

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:22 am

A little more information that may or may not be relevant, and some things I just double-checked on a test-drive:

* I only drive my Jeep once every three or four days (sometimes I can go a week without driving it). Might that have an effect on this?
* When it is parked, it sits on a slight downhill grade (see below). Would that do anything?

I just went out and test drove it again, and tried a couple things to trouble shoot this engine-surging-at-stops issue.

FIRST OFF: I plugged my MAF back in (two days ago), to see if this effected the engine-surging-at-stops issue via ECU/TCM interaction. From what I can feel, the engine-surging-at-stops is significantly less powerful or less dramatic. I'm not sure why, but maybe it is simply be due to the vehicle having less torque/power. Could plugging the MAF back in cause the vehicle to have less torque / power? Either way, it lessened the strength at which the engine-surging pushes at the stops. I can definitely still feel it and hear it, the idle drops from ~800 RPMS to about ~550 RPMS for about 1-2 seconds, and then the engine-surging ebbs ... and it's back to normal, until the next stop.

SECONDLY: I parked on a level area and checked the transmission fluid, and it looks good from what I can tell (full and clean). There is no burned smell or look to it, and the levels look right.

THIRDLY: The shifting in the transmission from 4th gear to 5th gear initiates at about 62MPH, never before. So I'm assuming my TCM had the F37 detune. Would that sound correct to you all?

Also I have been noticing that there is a significant delay in the Transmission shifting/catching (1 second delay) from Reverse to Drive, only when it is cold (meaning it hasn't been driven for a day or more) right when I start backing the Jeep out of the parking spot (Reverse), and then into Drive, up the little incline to exit the parking-lot. After it warms up, it seems like it shifts relatively quick and smooth, with out delays.

That's all I have so far .. more to come soon!

Thanks again.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:18 pm

Final shift at 62mph - yes that's the indication that the F-37 TCM reprogram was done (FYI can check the for owners section of the Jeep factory web site based on your VIN for any outstanding recalls)

Any delay in shifting into gear (either into drive or from drive to reverse or reverse to drive) when you first crank up after being parked for about the length of a normal workday or longer is likely the transmission fluid drain back problem. Easy diagnosis - crank up; shift into neutral; run a high idle (1500 rpm) for 10 seconds or so; engage tranny. If the problem goes away you have the drain back problem. If so that makes me wonder if whomever did your tranny service fully seated the filters. IIRC one of those filters is press on and there has been some chat about that filter requiring some degree of "persuasion" to seat properly and at least one member had odd tranny problems due to a split filter.

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:57 pm

Thanks for the suggestions and the great specifics Papaindigo ... I will definitely try the Crank-up-&-Neutral-1500-RPMs method today during lunch, and hopefully narrow down if that is one of the issue. If so, then that starts us down the path of crossing off one possible problem that might be contributing to the quirky behavior since the maintenance work.

You rock!

Talk with you soon.

Sarma.

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:50 pm

Okay so I ran home and tried the suggestion you made Papaindigo:

I started the Jeep, placed it into Neutral, revved it at about 1500 RPMs for 10+ seconds ... and then put it in Reverse, backed it out of the parking spot, and then placed it in Drive and pushed on the diesel pedal.

The 1 second delay of the gears engaging is definitely still there.

I tried the whole thing twice just to be sure, and yes ... there is still a 1 second delay with the gears engaging from Reverse to Drive when it is cold.

Anyone have any ideas or suggestions about what it might be, or what I might try next :?:

I am going to let the mechanic know about it either way, since I'll be dropping it off there tonight.

Talk with you soon.

Sarma.

Hexus · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:08 pm

Infinite_Karma wrote:

Okay so I ran home and tried the suggestion you made Papaindigo:

I started the Jeep, placed it into Neutral, revved it at about 1500 RPMs for 10+ seconds ... and then put it in Reverse, backed it out of the parking spot, and then placed it in Drive and pushed on the diesel pedal.

The 1 second delay of the gears engaging is definitely still there.

I tried the whole thing twice just to be sure, and yes ... there is still a 1 second delay with the gears engaging from Reverse to Drive when it is cold.

Anyone have any ideas or suggestions about what it might be, or what I might try next :?:

I am going to let the mechanic know about it either way, since I'll be dropping it off there tonight.

Talk with you soon.

Sarma.

Yes, it sounds like a drainback issue. Install a Transgo Shift Kit. Kit is $60, the Fluid and Filter kit for the tranny pan drop is about $140 from ID Parts. It doesn't take a tranny shop, but it would probably be preferred. I'm dealing with a very similar issue right now, but mine is more solenoid pack related. I'm putting a Transgo in there while we're in there.

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:38 pm

Thanks Hexus .. I'm going to make sure the mechanic who changed the transmission fluid and filters on March 7th (which is also the mechanic who did all the other work on the vehicle) knows about this symptom and the high probability that it is a trans filter drainback issue.

Hopefully they'll be willing to go in, do the transmission filter investigate, and be honest if they find a problem, rather than saying that there wasn't a problem with the seals and simply fix it and charge me for the double work.

We'll see.

Infinite_Karma · **Posted:** Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Alrighty then! ... The fix to both issues of my 05 Jeep Liberty CRD's Engine/Transmission-Surging and Transmission Drain-Back have been solved!! Thanks to everyone (papaindigo, Big Montana, GreenDieselEngineering, racertracer, thomas04, & Hexus) who helped me suggest the fix to my mechanic, it really helped. As many people referenced, the problem was the aftermarket Transmission filter kit that the initially mechanic installed. Back in March when he did the work the first time, he did not use an OEM Transmission filter kit & filter (5179267AC is the filter kit & 5013470AD is the filter). Instead he chose to install an ATP Transmission Filter kit & Filter (B-196 & B-200). Once he dropped the pan, put in the OEM Filter kit and filter, and sealed/filled my Jeep back up .. it shifts great without any lag and there is no surging ever!!

Once again, thanks !

Now on to figure out how air is still getting in the fuel-line even with my 2nd generation fuel filter head (or to simply install a lift-pump)! I'll keep yall updated!

Engine surge when stopped! - after tune-ups...?

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