My CRD is dead and I need advise

fr0stspire · **Joined:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:12 pm **Posts:** 4

Hello all.

I am new here. I am looking for a bit of some answers to my newly dead CRD.

Firstly. I am a mechanic. However I am not a automobile mechanic I am a 35 year veteran with powersports.

Two days ago, I drove my libby and a few minutes after getting underway, I hear a loud knocking sound. There was a loss of power associated with it. I was not in a position to where I could pull over so I drove it to my destination.

I left my destination and the sound changed. It was now a tapping sound. So I drove it back home. My thoughts were, its going to do something bad so why not just get it home *LOL*

Sure enough the knocking got louder and the power started dropping. But it felt smooth no misfires.

And then the motor quit and thats when my Jeep got towed home by my brother in laws Toyota (oh you know I got grilled for that).

I put a breaker bar on the end of the crank and the motor was locked up.

So thinking my timing belt snapped (because it sort of felt like that) and the knock was valves slapping the pistons since it probably skipped time, I pulled the belt cover off thinking I am going to be doing that timing belt that I was planning on doing 2 months ago (staring at the box of parts on the shelf) and I am now going to be replacing a bunch of rocker arms too.

After getting the cover off the belt housing I was surprised to find a belt in good condition all nice and tight.

So I pulled the belt off and tried to rotate the crank. Nada. The cams turn fine. Next I drained the oil thinking that knock was a rod but rod knocks dont just come suddenly and blow right away. That is something that comes and blows over a period of time. The oil came out black and a bit thick but no signs of gold flake or metal in the oil. And the idiot light appears to always be operating correctly

Now a few time I have read about torque converters on these things. I have had my rig stall a few times when coming to a stop. One day it shuddered on the freeway. I have read the bolts come loose too. I am thinking that the power loss with the knock was the converter failing causing it to bog the engine maybe?

Well the bolts are next to check but I dont see how you do it. My wrangler has an inspection cover on the bottom this one does not appear to have one or I am just blind and cant see it. Any clues?

Secondly, can the converter fail and cause the engine to stay completely locked up? I cannot turn it in either direction. What other things might be an issue on these rigs that I should be looking for?Has this ever happened to anyone else here?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:06 pm

Need more information. Please do the following and report back-

Remove the airbox to turbo hose and check the turbo shaft at the end for play. Is there any? CHeck it both laterally (pull parallel to the shaft) and radially (perpendicular to the shaft)

Was the oil level low? Did you notice any smoke?

Is the coolant level low? Are the levels in different sections notably different? Is there coolant in the driver's side section of the reservoir?

Is there oil dripping from the exhaust pipe? From the turbo?

When you say you removed the belt cover, did you just remove the serpentine belt, or did you remove the serpentine belt AND the timing belt underneath it?

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:11 pm

Wow - I think we all have that inclination to 'get it home', but that decision seems to end with a tow just the same. At least, from reading other posts here on L.O.S.T. So, in retrospect, the additional damage doesn't seem to be balanced by much of a reduction in inconvenience. No condo - just a comment for us all.

I wonder if you had a head gasket let go? It could be hydro-locked on more than one cylinder.

And yes - your first thought may be correct. A number of Libbies have had the bolts back out at the flywheel - though the process from first noise to complete lockup was suspiciously quick. I don't think you'd lose power - it would just make noise until it jammed.. or broke loose completely.

My 2-cents are with the engine.

Another thought - one of the injectors may have started sticking (open) and washed down the cylinder walls. Deprived of lubrication, it may have suffered hydro-lock (fuel) or simply seized from lack of oil on the piston/cylinder walls.

You might take a look (scope) in the flywheel area to see if the TC has come unbolted.

For the engine, I'd pull the injectors and drop a scope in to take a look before pulling the head.

Agree with the previous poster - see if there are symptoms of a turbo failure. There would be lots of oil where it didn't belong, and not enough in the crankcase. When the turbo goes, it can take the engine out in minutes as it quickly starves for oil.

No codes?

Mark

fr0stspire · **Joined:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:12 pm **Posts:** 4

Guys, This is not an oil related failure I don't think. No the motor is not hydro locked I can turn the cams until the valves hit the pistons. No metal in oil means there is probably no crank damage. I am leaning towards the torque converter. It never over heated, it never knocked until this day and it was something that happened in under 20 miles of driving. Rod knocks usually start and over time they start getting louder. This vehicle never smoked or burned much oil. No the turbo did not fail its in one piece. Right now I do not feel like dropping the crossmember to pull the pan and I don't think that is the issue.

I am looking for answers on the likeliness the torque converter is the fault and how the hell to get to the bolts. It seems to be an issue and I am not finding a lot of info on it in searches.

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:02 am

Was there any black smoke out the rear when the tapping/knocking started or before it "LOCKED UP?"

If yes then you've crushed rockers/lifters, the belt is not an indicator of damage, my belt looked perfect yet when I pulled the valve cover the lifters were shot and the rockers looked like crap.

Insofar as the crank, you would have to ask someone more familiar with transmission issues than I, but I know there's backflow issues with the original tranny as I'm experiencing some pump and backflow issues now.

Why would you turn the crank without the timing belt attached? I can only assume that you attempted to turn it to check the timing and it wouldn't turn, so you took the timing belt off to see where the problem was, and you can turn the cams - Although that's not a good idea without it turning in time, but you can't turn the crank.

As Geordi says, "Bad Noises mean bad things."

I hope for your sake it's only a torque converter, but I doubt it. You have to drop the transmission to get to the Torque Converter.

The service manual will tell you as much as anyone here can, there's a download link for it in the Noob Guide or on Sir Sam's Page.

Go there.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:14 am

As I understand it:
1. engine won't manually turn from the crank;
2. you removed the serp belt and timing belt cover and the timing belt and the cam gears can be manually turned until valves tap the top of the pistons but the engine is still locked
If that's the case and if you did not mark the cam gears and the adjacent housing a secondary problem is the engine is now totally out of time as 3 things must be true for the engine to be timed correctly 1/2) both cam pins inserted and 3) the flywheel pin inserted to ensure the cams are timed to the crank. Yes I know in theory if you start with a running in time engine a TB can be installed without doing the pins (not a really good idea) if you mark everything but that's only doable if the engine is in time to start with and by moving your cams it's not.

The only easy way I know of to check the TC flywheel bolts requires turning the engine so the bolts can be seen thru an inspection port that I understand is adjacent to the starter but that's out because the engine won't turn.

At this point Hexus is right the only way to check the TC is to drop the tranny since you cannot turn the engine. Also for what it's worth the only way to check the rockers is to pull the valve cover, etc. Before pulling the tranny double check the turbo shaft for play and I'd be inclined, yes I see you are pretty sure it's not hydrolocked, to pull the injectors to see what if anything is in the top of the combustion chamber. Neither of those things are particularly hard to do.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:09 pm

The reason I asked the questions I did was to ascertain what might have caused the engine to not turn. It is either the TC or an internal failure, possibly either some type of rod failure or a rocker failure. Rod failures appear to be often preceeded by a turbo failure, partial or total, resulting in a loss of oil pressure to the rod bearings, while rocker failures often result from accumulated wear.

The tapping noise is not consistent with a TC failure, another reason I asked the questions that I did. The fact that the cams can be moved does not mean that the rockers have not failed, nor does it mean that the valves are not jammed against the pistons.

Now that you have made removal of the camshaft holder/valve cover inevitable, you might as well do it now and determine whether or not you have rocker damage. If not, then you will need to determine whether or not to drop the tranny, or pull the engine.

Good luck!

Hexus · **Posted:** Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:39 pm

If you're lining up the intake side for the PTDC pin for timing you can look through the oil fill tube and watch the pin hole for the intake pin go by and probably get it by simple trial and error, but for the exhaust side you're going to have to pull the valve cover and watch it from upside-down as you turn it to locate the pin hole most likely to ensure you have the right hole.

You're probably going to have to wait on the crank unless you drop the tranny, there's an alignment pin down there as well that's required and you can actually line up the intake an exhaust up top and be off 180 degrees down there, but that's probably excessive information for you atm.

Pull the valve cover, see what you can see. Get a big Mason/Ball jar and fill it 3/4 with Diesel, store your injectors in it, don't let them dry out. Trust me.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:48 pm

PS when/if you pull the injectors keep them in order as they are coded into the ECU for best operation and need to go back in the same place(s)

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:12 pm

FYI - Torque converter bolts
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=74208&p=776721#p776721

but as mentioned - you need to be able to turn the crank to see the bolts.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:05 pm

I'll bet everyone has been waiting with bated breath to see if I jumped in here.

Frostspire: Having oil still in the pan does not preclude rod bearing damage and rod failure. My engine #2 failed in this way similar to your description. It never ran low on either oil or oil pressure. There was no turbo failure preceding the rod failure either. Never overheated (with either engine) and it still destroyed itself with no obvious cause. Oil changes every 3000 or 5000 miles with pure synthetic. No CCV or EGR flow, and I had a pressure gauge mounted to the main oil gallery to monitor the ACTUAL oil pressure.

It started with lots of tapping that sounded like it was coming from the top end, but the vehicle was still drivable and performing normally. Just the noise as the only symptom. I drove it home (about 10 miles) and started the diagnostics, not driving it again. Turned out, that trip home was the last time I drove it. The noise sounded like lifter / rocker noise possibly, or combustion getting its way back into the intake possibly from a burnt valve. After tearing the top end apart trying to find the problem (and finding nothing on the lifters / rockers or valves) the engine showed me the failure. At idle, having never run low on oil, it put a rod end through the side of the block right behind where the EGR was supposed to be mounted. The crank completely froze at that point. The steel under the EGR valve is not terribly thick, and if your EGR is in place, it could easily be hiding the damage from visual inspection and still allowing the crank to be seized from the damage.

If your crank and engine stopped suddenly, and you haven't yet found a source of internal damage forcing its way out... Look to the EGR valve. At the back of the block on the driver's side, under and behind the intake elbow. Look for oil on the sides of the block where it shouldn't be - there will be a hole somewhere. If your transmission flexplate bolts had backed out, there still should be a little bit of motion possible on the crank nut. If you have nothing... You probably have a blown rod somewhere.

dragand021 · **Joined:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:52 pm **Posts:** 34

Is the crank completely seized, or you just can't complete the full turn? On mine, with the rocker failure, i could not complete the turn because of the soot and carbon build up on the valves and pistons. I pulled the head, cleaned everything up, retimed it and all good... For now.

fr0stspire · **Joined:** Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:12 pm **Posts:** 4

Well crap, it looks like the thing seized a piston or two. IDK why it did, its got plenty of oil in it and the oil pressure light never came on until it died. Oh well, its dead and its not getting fixed.

With that said, the timing belt I was going to do on it is no longer so I will have a full timing belt kit and tools to do it up for sale as I no longer need them.

Thanks for all the pointers but I think I found the grim answer I was not looking for

Hexus · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:09 am

There but for the grace of god I go.

My best wishes and heartfelt condolences.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:36 am

fr0stspire wrote:

Well crap, it looks like the thing seized a piston or two. IDK why it did, its got plenty of oil in it and the oil pressure light never came on until it died. Oh well, its dead and its not getting fixed.

With that said, the timing belt I was going to do on it is no longer so I will have a full timing belt kit and tools to do it up for sale as I no longer need them.

Thanks for all the pointers but I think I found the grim answer I was not looking for

Did the vc or head get removed?

Where are you located?

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:59 am

If people did not know to immediately turn off the key when they hear a"loud knocking sound", now they do.
DOC

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:24 pm

Why else do you think I have this in my signature line: Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Sorry for the bad news, Frostspire. Tell us where you are located, and maybe there is someone nearby that can at least have a look and give you a second opinion... Or share a commiserating beer with you on this unfortunate situation.

My CRD is dead and I need advise

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