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 Post subject: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:15 pm 
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http://www.wfmz.com/lifestyle/money/Chrysler-refuses-to-recall-2-7-million-Jeep-SUVs/-/133080/20419104/-/1suror/-/index.html

In a rare rebuff of the U.S. government, Chrysler Group is refusing a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration request for a recall of 2.7 million SUVs.

The government agency says the gas tank design used in 1993 to 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokees and 2002 to 2007 Jeep Libertys is unsafe.

It is the first time since 1996 that an automaker has challenged a recall demand from the safety agency. That case, also involving Chrysler, was over the seat belt system on 91,000 cars. Chrysler -- which was an independent U.S. company at the time -- won a federal court decision on that dispute two years later.

Chrysler -- now controlled by the Italian carmaker Fiat after the 2009 U.S. government-sponsored bailout -- said it has been working with the agency over concerns over the vehicles in the current dispute since 2010.

Chrysler says that the design of the gas tank cited by NHTSA -- placed behind the rear axle -- is a commonly accepted design used in many other vehicles. It also says that the fatal accidents that occurred involving the vehicles were almost all high-speed, high-energy accidents in which a different design would have made no difference.

For example, it said one accident involved a tractor-trailer truck traveling 65 miles per hour that hit a stationary Grand Cherokee.

"We believe NHTSA's initial conclusions are based on an incomplete analysis of the underlying data, and we are committed to continue working with the agency to resolve this disagreement," said the automaker's statement. It said it typically conducts recalls before it receives any notices from the safety agency.

Since it started the recall process in 1966, NHTSA said it has been involved in 17,000 separate recalls involving about 500 million vehicles.

"The driving public should know that NHTSA is actively investigating this issue and is requesting that Chrysler initiate a safety recall and notify all affected owners of the defect," NHTSA Administrator David Strickland said in a statement. "NHTSA hopes that Chrysler will reconsider its position and take action to protect its customers and the driving public."

The NHTSA investigation began at the request of the Center for Auto Safety, a Washington public interest group. The group said there have been 201 fire crashes with 285 deaths involving the Grand Cherokees, and 36 accidents resulting in 53 deaths involving the Libertys.

Clarence Ditlow, the Center for Auto Safety's executive director, has asked Chrysler to recall those model year Grand Cherokees on its own, and has also written to NHTSA asking the agency to order a recall.

"The only way to prevent more fire deaths is for NHTSA to order a mandatory safety recall and require Chrysler to design an effective remedy," said Ditlow in his letter to NHTSA.

Even Ditlow's own letter to Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne says that the current versions of the Cherokee and Liberty have a redesigned gas tank that does not pose the same risk.

While neither Chrysler nor NHTSA would give an estimated cost of a recall, the Center for Auto Safety estimated it would cost Chrysler no more than $300 million to install a 3 millimeter steel skid, a fuel tank check valve and better fuel filler hose and address the problem.

Michelle Krebs, senior analyst for Edmunds.com, said Chrysler is taking a risk by taking on the NTHSA, even if they are eventually proven to be right.

"Yes, it costs a lot of money to fix and it's a lot of vehicles," Krebs said. "But it can cost a lot of money in terms of future sales if it backfires."

She points out that a recall problem helped knock Toyota Motor out of its position as the world's top automaker.

"A company like Toyota can bounce back. Can Chrysler bounce back with its already fragile reputation on quality?" she said. "It's damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Chrysler says that there are many models of other automakers with far higher fatality rates, and that the incidents cited by the agency "occur less than once for every million years of vehicle operation."

"NHTSA seems to be holding Chrysler Group to a new standard for fuel tank integrity that does not exist now and did not exist when the Jeep vehicles were manufactured," said the company.

But the Center for Auto Safety said the risk of fire for a Grand Cherokee in the model years in question is more than 20 times greater than the risk in a comparable Ford Explorer. NHTSA's letter to Chrysler said the vehicles in the recall request perform poorly in regard to fatalities, fires without fatalities, and fuel leaks when compared to all but one similar vehicle.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Just heard about this on the radio, at least diesel doesn't explode like gas !

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:35 pm 
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I know of one gas fueled Grand of that vintage that was in a rear end high speed crash and while totalled there was no fuel leak, nor fire. As stated the design of the tank location was a common factor in many vehicle designs of that time and to single out Chrysler (Jeeps) is unreasonable. We can't expect "granny" regulation to protect us against everything in life. Put a bash plate on it if it bothers you, and drive a diesel.


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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Doesn't surprise me about the problem, that fuel tank on the GC DOES hang visible below the bumper, and if you are hit by anything with a low front end... They will go right through the PLASTIC tank.

It also doesn't surprise me that Chrysler/Fiat's answer to the government is a big loud "SOD OFF" as that is precisely what they said to their customers already since the bankruptcy.

The judge in NY gave them a free pass that they didn't need to pay for any prior liabilities, claims, or obligations. So instantly, Daimler/Chrysler ceased to exist, and any vehicle manufactured before the bankruptcy had as much guaranteed manufacturer support as a DeLorean, Hudson, or a Tucker.

Sure, SOME dealers may have done SOME warranty work since then... But they were not required to do that. Legally, they could have told each owner to piss off, and the owner would have zero legal recourse. Another way to think of it: One day, it was a Jeep branded dealership, the next they could have been selling Hondas. Same people, same skills... No reason to expect them to continue supporting what they just sold. On a company-wide basis, that is exactly what that judge allowed to happen, and now we see the true result.

Could people die from this design flaw? Sure. Would it be tragic? Certainly. Will there be ANY way of compelling Fiat to take up the cost (liability) for this recall, OR to pay out one dime to a victim's family? Nope. Chrysler/Fiat didn't manufacture that 90's era Jeep, just like they didn't manufacture a Toyota or anything else. Therefore, they have zero reason to accept responsibility to pay for this.

Welcome to the new marketplace: Privatized profits, socialized costs. You accept all the risks, they get all the winnings.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:03 pm 
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When I first heard of this I was thinking it was the problem I have of every time I fill up fuel leaks from somewhere off the top of the tank to the ground. But they are referring to accidents.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:42 pm 
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I just seen this and thought it would kick up a nice good :ROTFL: :-)r :goink: :roll: :BANANA: :furious: :dizzy:

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:01 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Doesn't surprise me about the problem, that fuel tank on the GC DOES hang visible below the bumper, and if you are hit by anything with a low front end... They will go right through the PLASTIC tank.

It also doesn't surprise me that Chrysler/Fiat's answer to the government is a big loud "SOD OFF" as that is precisely what they said to their customers already since the bankruptcy.

The judge in NY gave them a free pass that they didn't need to pay for any prior liabilities, claims, or obligations. So instantly, Daimler/Chrysler ceased to exist, and any vehicle manufactured before the bankruptcy had as much guaranteed manufacturer support as a DeLorean, Hudson, or a Tucker.

Sure, SOME dealers may have done SOME warranty work since then... But they were not required to do that. Legally, they could have told each owner to piss off, and the owner would have zero legal recourse. Another way to think of it: One day, it was a Jeep branded dealership, the next they could have been selling Hondas. Same people, same skills... No reason to expect them to continue supporting what they just sold. On a company-wide basis, that is exactly what that judge allowed to happen, and now we see the true result.

Could people die from this design flaw? Sure. Would it be tragic? Certainly. Will there be ANY way of compelling Fiat to take up the cost (liability) for this recall, OR to pay out one dime to a victim's family? Nope. Chrysler/Fiat didn't manufacture that 90's era Jeep, just like they didn't manufacture a Toyota or anything else. Therefore, they have zero reason to accept responsibility to pay for this.

Welcome to the new marketplace: Privatized profits, socialized costs. You accept all the risks, they get all the winnings.

So if you bought a company would you cover all cost's on something that was made almost 30 years ago and you had no say on how it was made?


Eitherway they won once in court and this is another text book case of singling out 2 models of Jeeps.Funny thing is the new and tougher crash standards which forced all rear gas tanks to be moved was for model year '07 and newer and the model year '07 KJ did pass those tests with a rear mounted gas tank.


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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:20 pm 
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KD6ICZ wrote:
When I first heard of this I was thinking it was the problem I have of every time I fill up fuel leaks from somewhere off the top of the tank to the ground. But they are referring to accidents.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Is this in your CRD, or in a grand cherokee? My 97 GC leaks like that if the tank is filled completely up - it is the gasoline expansion pressure and the non-vented cap forcing the fuel past the tank pump seal. It never did that until I had to drop the tank to replace the pump.

I don't really want to take the whole thing apart again, and simply leaving the cap slightly loose solves the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:15 am 
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So............You're telling me I'm driving a 4wd PINTO? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:32 am 
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I'm not sure what it takes to cause a leak. My original 05 CRD was rear ended by a medium large dump truck carrying 6 cu. yds of dirt probably moving about 25-30mph. I stopped for the red light but he did not; tried to dodge right (darn turbo lag) while he tried to dodge left. Hit was biased a bit left of rear dead center causing me to spin XX? (no clue how many) times inside the intersection winding up pointing in the direction I came from. Both rear tires flat, top of lift gate just aft of drivers head rest, engine still running, all sorts of stuff flew from point A to point B inside vehicle and some stuff 75-100' away down the road. Fuel leakage ZERO and I did not have the fuel tank skid.

Scratched the paint on his bumper and left me with a small bruise from the steering wheel locking lever which came down.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:43 am 
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NHSTA recommended fix? - add fuel tank skid plate

Even better fix - add fuel tank skid and trailer towing hitch

PS - The Federal Govt is currently mandating increasing vehicle (not just cars and trucks BTW) safety criteria while at the same time mandating ever increasing fuel mileage standards. These two things are in direct conflict with each other and can only be met by using higher technology components in more complicated systems. This will result in increased purchase prices and maintance costs for the consumer.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:05 pm 
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painemann wrote:
Just heard about this on the radio, at least diesel doesn't explode like gas !


Yep, THIS. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:54 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Doesn't surprise me about the problem, that fuel tank on the GC DOES hang visible below the bumper, and if you are hit by anything with a low front end... They will go right through the PLASTIC tank.


Or it will go right through a tinfoil thin steel tank.

The WJs have a massively beefy steel gas tank enclosure, there is just only so much you can do about the energy involved in these rear end collisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:39 pm 
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geordi wrote:
KD6ICZ wrote:
When I first heard of this I was thinking it was the problem I have of every time I fill up fuel leaks from somewhere off the top of the tank to the ground. But they are referring to accidents.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Is this in your CRD, or in a grand cherokee? My 97 GC leaks like that if the tank is filled completely up - it is the gasoline expansion pressure and the non-vented cap forcing the fuel past the tank pump seal. It never did that until I had to drop the tank to replace the pump.

I don't really want to take the whole thing apart again, and simply leaving the cap slightly loose solves the problem.


I bet the plastic ring that holds the fuel pump is not tied, had the same issue on my 99 cherokee, had to take down the tank and tie it better.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:20 am 
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Is there any reason to think that with the factory KJ tank skidplate and hitch, the risk of fire in a rear end accident may be less?

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:56 am 
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thermorex wrote:
geordi wrote:
KD6ICZ wrote:
When I first heard of this I was thinking it was the problem I have of every time I fill up fuel leaks from somewhere off the top of the tank to the ground. But they are referring to accidents.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Is this in your CRD, or in a grand cherokee? My 97 GC leaks like that if the tank is filled completely up - it is the gasoline expansion pressure and the non-vented cap forcing the fuel past the tank pump seal. It never did that until I had to drop the tank to replace the pump.

I don't really want to take the whole thing apart again, and simply leaving the cap slightly loose solves the problem.


I bet the plastic ring that holds the fuel pump is not tied, had the same issue on my 99 cherokee, had to take down the tank and tie it better.



Huh? I'm confused, 'tied'? It was a big threaded ring. Please explain what you mean, because I have no idea what needed to be done to 'tie it better' in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:15 am 
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Doc - I'd think the answer is probably although my unfortunate 05 that was rear ended only had an aftermarket receiver hitch which might have added some degree of extra impact strength between the "frame" rails and the rear of the tank. Short of a hugely heavy and very expensive double wall tank with sealant between the walls about the best design possible is put the tank in some location where it's surrounded by stuff that won't crush much in most impacts. Is it rationally possible to make a crush proof/fireproof tank for all possible crash situations IMHO nope.

At least diesel is hard to "light".

I'd type a rant about endless ineffectual efforts to make all things safe at all times under all conditions but won't bother other than to say at some point things are about as safe as possible and sometimes bad things happen. At least that's the thought I have when TSA demands my wallet be scanned or wants to "sniff" coins for explosives.

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 Post subject: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:32 pm 
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Lets not start talking about the Theatrical Security Agency. The repeated success of penetration tests has proven that the TSA would be lucky to discover water while falling out of a boat.


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 Post subject: Re: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:49 pm 
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geordi wrote:
thermorex wrote:
geordi wrote:
[quote="KD6ICZ"]When I first heard of this I was thinking it was the problem I have of every time I fill up fuel leaks from somewhere off the top of the tank to the ground. But they are referring to accidents.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Is this in your CRD, or in a grand cherokee? My 97 GC leaks like that if the tank is filled completely up - it is the gasoline expansion pressure and the non-vented cap forcing the fuel past the tank pump seal. It never did that until I had to drop the tank to replace the pump.

I don't really want to take the whole thing apart again, and simply leaving the cap slightly loose solves the problem.


I bet the plastic ring that holds the fuel pump is not tied, had the same issue on my 99 cherokee, had to take down the tank and tie it better.



Huh? I'm confused, 'tied'? It was a big threaded ring. Please explain what you mean, because I have no idea what needed to be done to 'tie it better' in there.[/quote]

Lol, my english sucks, I meant the fastner ring (i think mine was a plastic very wide ring) needs to be screwed in better. In my case was loose from when changing the fuel pump, and every time I filled up, I had a leak.

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 Post subject: Chrysler Refuses to Recall 2.7 Million Jeeps
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:54 pm 
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I can remember the fuel tank in our pickup being behind the seat in the cab of the truck.
Sometimes we learn from the past and make changes. But if it meets safety standards when built it shouldn't be recalled. If a defect is found that endangers then it should be.


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