Turbocharger

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:56 pm

In my other thread about my engine issues, you will see why I have the engine apart. The mechanic said he noticed my turbo might be going up. He said most people check a certain way to see if it is going bad, which turned out fine. He said that he always checks it another way which seems like it might need replacement. I honestly have no idea what he was talking about, but I will attempt to describe. He basically tried to turn the fan with his finger angled in one direction. It turns fine but then it seems to meet some resistance at one point. I have no idea what this means, but I did it myself. He says its the way some manufacturers told him to do it.

The problem is my timing belt repairs and whatnot will be running me a pretty high bill. It's hard for me to replace a turbo too with the limited money I have. The guy said that most likely I will notice problems with it if it goes bad and will be able to bring it in for a repair, but there are worst case scenarios where it can cause damage...as opposed to just lack function.

I have heard on here that some people have ignored their turbo's and ended up with bad engine damage. I don't quite understand how this works...I thought it would just not function right and you would see bad performance. I must say, I am ignorant on cars besides simple maintenance on them. Obviously it would really suck to pay for the timing belt repairs and then have the engine get screwed up again. EVEN though I might be selling the car after repairs, I'm still worried (and yes I will be telling the buyer about the repairs).

What do you guys think?

QCCRD · **Joined:** Tue May 08, 2012 6:02 pm **Posts:** 11

Have him show you and prove it to you.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:11 pm

He did show me what I described above. I just didn't really understand what he was saying.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:47 pm

When the turbo 'goes', often what happens is that the seals let go and the oil that is supposed to lube the turbo bearings flows into the air stream and on into the intercooler instead of returning to the oil pan. If it does, t can drain your engine oil fairly quickly. If you don't notice the smoke, or noise, or some symptom in time you can lose enough engine oil to starve the rod bearings and ruin the bottom end (bearings) - even throw a rod. A few have had this happen so fast that they say you can't even leave the engine running while you pull over - you literally turn the engine off and coast to a stop to prevent oil starvation.

After dark, for example, you may not notice the smoke (from the extra engine oil) in time.

Mark

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:57 pm

Spin the turbo shaft (installed) with your right thumb and forefinger. If you feel any roughness, it is junk. Then, grab the end of the shaft and see if it moves in and out AT ALL (endplay). If it does, it is junk. Then, grab it and see if it just barely moves up and down a TINY bit (axial play). Just a perceptible amount is as new. (I have a new one in the box. I know.)

If your turbo is toast, you are wasting your money fixing the motor and running with the old turbo. Many people here have lost their motor within 60 seconds of turbo failure.

I believe GDE has new turbos for $800 (lowest price I know of for OEM). Rebuilt is not good and almost that much.

Good Luck!

DOC

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:12 am

I understand now. I have to talk to the guy again. I was confused before I did research on turbo failure.

I thought if you lost oil the low oil pressure light would come on, and I thought that the engine actually shuts itself off if low oil pressure. I guess not.

It sucks tacking on another almost $800 to an already expensive bill for something I am going to sell soon anyway

but it would also suck to fix the motor and then lose it.

What the guy showed me was spinning it with two fingers. It spun freely fine, but he said to put a little pressure on it from an angle. At that point it spun, and then met resistance at a certain spot. I can't remember about the other stuff (play)...I have to ask again. This was with the turbo disconnected from the vehicle. He said it might be different with oil, but he recommends I replace it.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:16 am

My understanding is that our turbos have no "seals".

DOC

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:57 am

Okay I looked up videos of turbo play. That is not what mine did.

It was not play back and forth. It was just when you rotate it. It spins freely without a problem, but if you put angled pressure with the two fingers when spinning it...it met resistance at some point. This is what he warned me of.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:33 am

I check mine for fore and aft play and for radial play. Having it stop when you spin it with the engine off says little as there is no oil film without oil pressure; it should not grate and there ought not be any significant resistance. If you pressure the shaft to obe side it will stop sooner because you are pressing the shaft against the bearing.

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:30 pm

I can't find any turbo's on the GDE website. Am I missing something?

Also, what about new aftermarket turbo's?

What about rebuilt turbo's? I saw someone said they were not good.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:27 pm

Garrett (the maker of our turbo) DOES NOT AUTHORIZE ANY REBUILDS.

This is not by accident, and it is not to cost you money. I know there might be rebuild kits available. I bought one and gave it a try on a spare turbo for the education. The experiment was not successful, even though the parts all fit (what I thought was) perfectly.

There are also no aftermarket drop-in replacements. The ONLY aftermarket turbo is from GDE, it is their stage 2 kit that requires some modifications and an included tune to make the new turbo work. Very nice kit, $2200.

Find your local Bosch injector service shop. If they aren't also a Garrett distributor, they will know who is in your town. (they should be though). A BRAND NEW turbo should be around $1100 from them. There will be NO CORE charge.

Anyone that asks for a core charge, walk away. Something fishy is happening, and you want no part of it.
Anyone that offers to rebuild yours, or sell you a rebuilt, or says that rebuilding is perfectly fine for these - walk away.

Now, about your turbo. The oil pressure creates a balanced and nearly zero-friction support cushion for the turbo's center shaft. There are NO SEALS in the turbo. The end bearings are very finely machined, with a thrust bearing acting as a kind of pressure plate to help keep the oil in. If your mechanic thinks the oil within the turbo is a bad thing, ignore this. The oil came from your CCV, nowhere else.
I do not believe it is possible to completely gauge the function of a turbo without the oil flow, EXCEPT for the axial and end play tests mentioned above. Spinning the shaft means nothing. Placing pressure on the shaft while you are spinning it is not an accurate test - The turbo has a very finely balanced center shaft, nothing exists to push on it while the oil cushion exists. If there was a problem, you would feel it in the axial play test. The center shaft is steel, passing through a VERY finely machined brass tube. This tube is the main bearing, and does not rotate. It exists to contain the oil cushion. IF that cushion does not exist, the brass overheats VERY quickly, and basically is eaten away by metal on metal wear. This is why you would feel the side-to-side play, if the shaft hadn't seized in the first place.

I strongly suspect your turbo is **JUST FINE** and certainly will be fine for a start-and-idle test, while you listen for any odd sounds. Anything that sounds like scraping, keys jingling, metal on metal, shrieking... All bad. I don't think you would hear any of them however.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:35 am

Medic Patriot,

Geordi's advice is pretty much spot-on. Garrett only sells new turbos for the Jeep Liberty CRD. Yes, they can be had from most any Garrett distributor; concentrate on your local diesel shops, however. P/N 763360-5001S is what you are looking for.

The CHRA, (Center Housing and Rotating Assembly) is where all of the oil-related parts are located, including the shaft bearing that Geordi references. Yes, it is made of Brass, it does not move and lives happily with the wheel and shaft assembly in a bath of oil. There could be slight movement in the shaft fore and aft and up and down; this is to allow the oil to have the room needed to create that suspension area that is so vital. When you reach in and grab the comp wheel nut, and feel the assembly "wiggling" around, as long as your compressor wheel does not touch the inside of the housing that it lives in, you're likely good to go. Give the comp wheel and shaft a little spin as you wiggle and you'll see what I am referring to. This can all be done with the turbo in place on the engine. You'll hear and feel any rub against the housing by the Comp Wheel veins.

On the compressor or turbine wheel side of the shaft, I'm not sure exactly which side has it on our turbos, at the base of the wheel, there does exist a ring (called a piston ring or seal ring) that does seal the oil inside the CHRA and keep pressurized gases, i.e. exhaust and fresh air, from entering the turbo's oil drain area. This keeps oil from exiting your CHRA in areas other than the oil drain tube.

Hope this helps.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:59 am

You have to call Keith. He was supposed to be back yesterday. Not a standard item he carries, but he did have some. If he is out, ID Parts has them for $1100.

DOC

shelbydz · **Posted:** Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:59 pm

What I've always noticed about failing turbos is excessive burning oil. Our little diesel engines will burn a bit, but if you see a lot all the time then you really should check the turbo as described above.

I have done a lot of work on the old Chrysler 2.2 TII turbo engines and burnt my fair share of turbos. A tiny bit of wiggle in the shaft is normal, you'll see that on a brand new unit. But any more will leak oil out into the exhaust system and that's where the extra burning oil comes from.

hope this helps,

MedicPatriot · **Posted:** Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:03 pm

Since this thread I have come to the conclusion that my turbo is fine. Hopefully it remains fine, but I check it often.

Turbocharger

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