Well the tensioner is in place and the engine is timed with all pins in place.

My heart sunk for a moment when I turning the engine over by hand and it seemed to lock up. I had already turned the camshafts over individually while the crank was at 90 degrees ATDC so I knew they moved freely. All pins were in place so I was wondering what on earth it was. It wasn't compression as the injectors are out by the way.

I turned with a little more force and I overcame what the barrier was. I made two complete turns and the marks I drew on aligned.

I turned it over several more times and each revolution of the crank there was a 'rough spot' with a little more resistance. Nothing like the first turn when I was worried but a noticeable difference in feel so I wonder if there is damage to one of the crankshaft journals/bearings or between a piston and the bore. Maybe I'll only know on start up.

This potential damage brings me on the whole topic of replacing the rockers as I don't not know why they are damaged.

I have a report from a dealer who checked the valve timing stating that the timing was correct. Therefore, assuming this to be true and the fact that not every rocker was destroyed but most were very badly worn to varying extents would indeed indicate that the timing was fine.

The oil level was low so could poor lubrication be a cause for the rockers to fail instantaneously; which they did without obvious signs of diminishing performance but an instant failure accompanied by misfire and noise?

Does anybody have any ideas and known causes of rocker failure (particular non valve timing causes)?

Thanks.

Ok... If the injectors are out, and you are hitting a single place where the feel of turning the motor is different - STOP RIGHT NOW and by all means, DO NOT attempt to start the motor!

Something else is going on. Did they replace EVERY rocker? Are you SURE? It isn't that hard to take the cam pulleys back off, and pull the top valve cover. Yeah, the job will suck, but you need to be SURE.

With the valve cover off, you can inspect / replace all the rockers easily. At the same time, you can inspect the valve stems to ensure they are all at the same level, THEN give the crankshaft a few spins clockwise. Before turning it, make a mark on the crank pulley when you know that the #1 cylinder is 90 ATDC - This is the correct position when the bolt holes are vertical and horizontal. Which stroke (intake or exhaust) won't matter because the cams are off the rockers and the valves are all closed.

If you feel ANY funny business at this point... Something else has happened, and the bottom end needs to be inspected. I hope it isn't, but you need to pull this thing apart again to find out what it is trying to tell you.

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Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Thanks for the response.

The rockers have all been replaced by me so I know that has been done.

Just as a little background the car was booked into a dealership for an unrelated suspension recall and a coupe of days before going in the misfire occurred and so I asked the dealer to investigate. After much confusion and their suggestion to REMOVE THE ENGINE of all things Jeep Technical advised them to check the rockers so the valve cover was removed at a dealership and the rockers were discovered to be damaged. They wanted the equivalent of about $5000.00 for the work required ( the day before they wanted $4000.00 to remove the engine and investigate).

The potential cost and my lack of confidence in the dealer resulted in the vehicle being recovered to my home in a dismantled state. I obtained a set of rockers and replaced them, put the cover back on and the rest is history.

When I received the vehicle back the crank was aligned so I simply put the pin through the flywheel and the first time I turned it over was after the installation of the top end. I wish I turned it over before so I would know if it was unrelated to what I have done or not.

There is no sound to indicate anything is being contacted such as valve and piston crown (which the timing pins would verify too). As I wrote previously, as part of the tightening of the cam sprockets and then finding the pin holes once more they were turned many times without a sound or anything noticeably wrong.

I must admit that I didn't pay any particular attention to the valve stems when the cover was off but why would they be at a different level unless the collets had somehow unseated or they had been badly bent? There was nothing too apparent. Each rocker seated nicely on top of each valve. I put a little grease on each one to hold the rocker in place a little more.

Now if there is indeed a bottom end problem or piston to bore problem then at least it wasn't caused by my workmanship and is another fault possibly linked with the rocker failure.

I am a few hours away from starting anyway as I have to connect and bleed the fuel system and install the air intake together with various harness connectors.

I must admit I am loathed to remove the cover again. The revolution of the crank takes no more effort but it feels irregular through my ratchet at the same spot on each turn.

What do you think to the rocker failure to begin with? The cause may have damaged rings or journals too perhaps.

Once more, any input is appreciated.

The mystery continues.

I thought I'd update my progress if anybody is interested and in an attempt to seek some further help.

I connected the and bled the fuel system and all of the air intake and harnesses.

I cranked the engine and it turns over just fine on the starter motor but it does not start.

I loosened the injector pipes and fuel escapes so I know fuel is getting to the injectors.

I have had the injectors placed in the original sequence based on their markings corresponding to the sticker on the timing cover (as I learnt-thanks). I have also tried the injectors in other positions because apparently the dealer swapped injectors 1&4 with 2&3 in an attempt to discover what was wrong with the engine before they realised it was the rockers.

I tried both combinations, for example injector 1 in cylinders 2 and then 3 if you see what I mean so the original fitment pus the two possible variations of the swap.

It doesn't fire on any.

Does anybody have any other ideas or suggestions?

Mechanical it seems sound. No noise, no loss of compression.

It has got to be the injectors-I think.

Once more, any input is hugely appreciated so thank you in advance.

Apparently it is possible to mix up the connectors for the #4 injector with the rail pressure sensor(?) or other nearby device. They are identical plugs. I know the ECU won't fire the injectors until it reads enough rail pressure.

_________________
05CRD: GDE Hot ECU & TCM tunes, Provent, Cat filter, Facet lift pump, TransGo kit, Florida TC, Samcos, stainless brake lines, HDS thermostat, Renegade light bar,
RL super sliders, Bilstein adjustables, Al's Gen 4.5 Arms, 235/85-16 Duratracs, DTT rear, Elocker front, EVIC+TPMS, Turbo timer, McNally pillar gauges, Weeks Stage II kit.

Thanks for the response CATCRD.

You're right the #4 injector and the rail pressure sensor are interchangeable so I swapped them but the result is the same.

Once more I tried the injectors in varying cylinders (to the detriment of the washers no doubt but never mind) and it does not fire up.

geordi informed me of the markings on the sticker that correspond to the injectors (thanks very much) so I can keep track. The markings for all four are on one sticker not two on my engine but this should indicate their order from the factory.

The engine cranks & cranks and doesn't attempt to fire. I can only assume the injectors are still not opening as if there was air in the system or they were opening in the wrong cylinder and injecting fuel on the wrong stroke there would be some noticeable difference and the residual diesel may partially burn on compression and black smoke would be emitted from the exhaust but nothing.

It smoothly cranks in every scenario.

Has anybody encountered anything similar or had to have anything programmed?

I am determined to get this beast running now and it feels so close yet so far.

Thanks.

How did you store your injectors when you had the intake off, and for how long? I stored mine in a gallon bucket of diesel fuel, submerged.

All of your injector #'s should be on your timing belt cover plate, talk to Keith at GDE, he may know what order they go in just by the order they're on the plate, I do not recall. This should not keep it from starting though, just increases efficiency.

You may have to send the injectors to a Bosch certified shop to have them tested.

Check your ASD relay as well, replace it and the one beside it while you're in there, couldn't hurt.

_________________
Silver 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Limited:
GDE ECO Tune / Fumoto Valve / E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs / 2nd Gen Fuel Head / Mishimoto RED Hoses / Rockers/Lifters @ 114k / Hayden FC + 11 Blade Nylon / Sears P1 Battery / Transgo 45RFE-HD2 Reprogramming Kit / Timken Front Bearings

Thanks for your response Hexus.

IT IS RUNNING!

To address your question, the injectors were stored in the atmosphere for just over a week. They had been put in a cardboard box (un-numbered or ordered) by the dealer when they were returned to me. In hindsight I perhaps should have immersed them in fuel as you did to prevent corrosion as the tolerances are minuscule. However, they've been out longer than I first anticipated so it didn't really occur to me as being necessary at the time.

I was just about to see if my test light could detect if the injector connectors were receiving a voltage when I cranked it with #1 disconnected and there was a murmur that a cylinder fired for the first time. I reconnected #1 injector and it cranked with just a murmur again.

Therefore, fuel got into a cylinder (I don't know which) and the injectors must operate; maybe they're not in the correct cylinder but fuel has been injected.

I decided to do something I'd done on other, older, non-common rail diesels and that was to bleed the air at the injector pipes so I got an assistant to turn the ignition key to crank it over as I loosened each injector union in turn. It got better each time with the odd power stroke but wasn't running. I tried the filter once more but that was showing no signs of air as it had been bled several times just in case.

I cranked it a few more times, there was the odd power stroke and eventually it began running which was pleasing.

I guess it must have been some residual air between the rail and the injectors. I can't imagine the injectors were corroded and they overcame the corrosion holding them closed as it all happened quite simultaneously and an injector could remain corroded forever unless untreated so I'll dismiss that I think. Prevention is better than cure though Hexus so I wise move for future injectors.

So, it is running; it doesn't sound perfect which is still a concern. I don't think it is a misfire (or at least it is mild) but it doesn't sound quite right.

For anybody following this you may recall that I felt something mildly irregular when I turned it over by hand. Now that it is turning over a few hundred times a minute that mild irregularity could be magnified into something much more noticeable and much worse.

However, it is cold so I shall now try to install the front cover, fan and of course the alternator which would then allow me run it for a considerable time and get it up to temperature.

After cranking it over so much if I left it running for any length of time now it would shortly cut-out anyway without the battery being charged.

Whatever the end result on how good it runs (and of course I hope it improves) my home facilities and time would deter me from taking out the crankshaft and pistons to inspect the journals & bores. Something which if it was a sideline project I wouldn't mind doing as I've done that kind of thing before.

Anyway, this forum and those who have contributed have been very helpful. THANKS!

I still don't know what caused the rockers to fail and the potential bottom end damage so once again, even for curiosity's sake I am open to suggestions and it may prevent others from swearing at their engines too.

With respect to your sound it might be worth posting a like to a recording of the engine running.

As to the cranking up issue. I should have weighed in earlier to the effect that when you essentially remove all the fuel from the system "upstream" from the fuel filter it can take multiple cranking cycles to build enough pressure for the injectors to actually operate. I've wondered but don't know if opening the back end of the injector "circuit" where excess fuel returns to the tank would bleed that circuit faster; I don't know if that would work nor do I know how to do it but it's a thought.

I suspect you effectively did the same thing by cracking each injector fuel connection.

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Sold to LOST member my 05 Ltd, GDE Stg II turbo + TCM tune, SunCoast TC w. Transgo kit, Steiger window regulators, Samcos, Fumoto valve, 2nd gen filter head with Lub. Spec. bleeder, Hayden clutch & 11 blade fan, inverted spare, P-1 battery, BF Goodrich Long Trail TAs, Etecno1 glow plugs, timing belt at 50K miles/8 yrs

Thanks for your response papaindigo.

Here is a link to a folder that has a short clip of the engine running.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1g2lfj2y6llxjzp/lV0pYPwfDG

Any ideas would be appreciated.

The folder (linked above also shows a few photographs of a mounting bracket that I have no idea where it goes. I didn't take it off nor can I see anywhere obvious where the dealer must have removed it from.

The fan etc is still off but it doesn't seem that I am yet to fit it when I install them. There is a cable tie that has been snipped still in a hole so it must have a harness or hose attached to it somewhere.

The number on the casting is: 53013485AB but I can't get any info on it.

Any ideas anybody?

Thanks.

That bracket is easy. I was 99.9% sure I knew what it was right off but just took a look at my engine to confirm. It's actually PN 5093939AA (there is a bad image of it in the 06 parts manual). It's the rear bracket/brace for the alternator and is critical for proper alignment of the alternator pulley relative to the serp belt. The single hole end bolts to a hole on the lower rear of the alternator and the 2 hole end slopes up and bolts (2 bolts) to the side of the head or block, not sure which off hand but it should be obvious. I'm not sure if the bolt in the image is one of the 3 bolts but you clearly need 2 more. If you want images and for me to double check bolts send me an email not a PM.

I listened to the video (won't play if Firefox but does fine in IE) and:
1. the crank is somewhat longer than it should be but that may be a function of it just being back together and running.
2. my ear may not be the best for odd noises but I don't hear anything unusual other than possibly a rapid rhythmic "tick". Whether that's out of the ordinary or not I don't know and I cannot really check on my engine as all the front cover stuff is in place which masks noise from that area. The tick is apparent right after the engine starts; appears to die out but comes back beginning at -15 and then becomes less obvious when your angle of view changes in the latter part of the video.

Before you put the fan and shroud back on be sure to do a fan shroud mod so future access is easier (see viewtopic.php?f=98&t=64278&p=709322#p709322 for several options). As to what goes across the top of the fan shroud go to Sam's NOOB guide 1st picture. The black hose runs from a fitting on the upper driver's side of the radiator across the shroud and is retained by 2 obvious plastic clips. The silvery metal tube is an AC line and it rests on 2 plastic "saddles" that press into holes in the shroud and is retained in the saddles by thin zip ties. The black hose is easy to secure if the plastic clips are missing. However, the silvery metal tube needs to be treated with caution if the "saddles" are missing. The tube is aluminum and won't stand up to long term rubbing even against the shroud. If the "saddles" are missing make some substitute pads out of rubber or ethafoam and secure with zip ties as appropriate.

_________________
Sold to LOST member my 05 Ltd, GDE Stg II turbo + TCM tune, SunCoast TC w. Transgo kit, Steiger window regulators, Samcos, Fumoto valve, 2nd gen filter head with Lub. Spec. bleeder, Hayden clutch & 11 blade fan, inverted spare, P-1 battery, BF Goodrich Long Trail TAs, Etecno1 glow plugs, timing belt at 50K miles/8 yrs

Thanks very much for your response.

I'll take a look at the alternator. At least i know where it goes now. I was reluctant to proceed much further for fear of covering where it needs to go and be in a situation where I have to remove something again to fit it which would be a nuisance.

Thanks for taking a look at the video. From viewing it myself I realise it is not the best representation of hearing it directly. A cheap camera can't record the sound too well. Hopefully it will improve when it is up to temperature.

I'll take a look at the shroud modification and continue.

Thanks for your help.

At least I haven't paid the dealer the £3,300.00 they quoted for replacing the rockers (which I've just checked an exchange website to discover that is $5,042.77). I've spent a few hundred pounds on various parts and a little time in my garage but we have another car in the family so it wasn't too bad having one off the road.

The noise/noises you are hearing is air in the fuel, simply put. Those injectors take forever to work the most minute bit of air out of them. I was so concerned that I had screwed something up when mine was restarted but it was just air in the line and you need to bleed, and re-bleed the fuel head and also crack the fuel line near the rail and bleed it there too.

CAUTION: NEVER CRACK A FUEL LINE OPEN WITH THE VEHICLE RUNNING AS IT OPERATES AT VERY HIGH PRESSURE AND CAN CUT THROUGH FLESH/BONE WITH NO WARNING LIKE HYDRAULIC FLUID!!!!

With that aside, yeah, it's air you are hearing most likely.

You did replace the copper crush washers and o-rings on all of the injectors, yes?

If you didn't, you will, soon.

I think you can get a whole set from IDParts for about $10 shipped, do it now before you have to take it all apart later with all that other crap in your way.



I would also recommend once you get it all the way back together, that you check the torque on your injector securement again, as it will change and also toss a cup of water on top of your injectors while the engine is running to ensure that there is no blow-by.

_________________
Silver 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Limited:
GDE ECO Tune / Fumoto Valve / E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs / 2nd Gen Fuel Head / Mishimoto RED Hoses / Rockers/Lifters @ 114k / Hayden FC + 11 Blade Nylon / Sears P1 Battery / Transgo 45RFE-HD2 Reprogramming Kit / Timken Front Bearings

Thanks for your response Hexus.

I will bleed again to check for improvement once I've had it running up to temperature and cooled sufficiently again.

As for the 'O' rings and washers, yes I replaced them. Amazingly a set of four washers and 'O' rings from Jeep was almost a staggering £30.00 (which is around $50.00).

A mild concern is (based on some of my earlier posts) that I have swapped injectors around in an attempt to start as I was unsure of their correct position as the dealer had previously swapped them from cylinder to cylinder too. Therefore, the washers will not be pristine as I've tightened and loosened each injector a few times. However, all without the added heat, expansion and stress from a running engine so I'm hopeful they'll be fine.

I think the torque setting for them from memory is just under 40Nm which is not particularly tight so hopefully all is well but checking for blow back is not a bad idea.

Thanks.

Happy 4th July to all the American Jeep owners. It is not celebrated here in Britain.

More frustration now!

I've put the front cover, fan, alternator and belt on so everything is back to standard hoping I could run the engine for a considerable time with everything charging.

However, it won't bloody start!

It was running yesterday with the covers off.

Now it won't start. It fires up a little after much cranking and it cuts out. My battery is now flat and recharging.

I presume it is air in the fuel system but am happy, more than happy to receive any other ideas, tips or suggestions.

It was running so mechanically everything should be fine with timing & compression. The injectors have worked so I can't fathom what else it could be.

It's annoying.

Wish I could help! the only thing I can think of is keep bleeding the air out of the fuel! I feel your pain!!

_________________
-05 Dark Khaki Limited CRD. GDE ECO tune. In-tank lift pump, Transgo doo doo kit, B&M trans cooler, replaced trans solenoid pack and filters, Newer Michelin tires, Timing belt with all related parts replaced at 110,000miles.

It is not?

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05 CRD Sport Dark Kahki

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After doing the rockers to mine, I really had to prime the fuel filter, I was lucky with the kennedy lift pump I had. After fully primed, tooked a while for the car to start, like 5-6 cranks for about 10 sec each. I also left the injectors in an empty box, but for about 24 hours.

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2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.

OK, your treacherous holiday of traitors is now over. I hope it was good while it lasted.

I was working on my darn Jeep once more this morning and have tried starting it a few more times while slightly loosening the injector pipe unions to bleed air out (which I know is not ideal and potentially hazardous).

It did begin to run and cut out so I persevered with this technique until it was running.

However, white/grey smoke billows from the exhaust.

It did not do this on first start-up with covers off as my earlier video clip shows and I switched it off to preserve the battery while the alternator was disconnected rather than it cutting out after just a brief run.

What on earth could this be?

Typically white, grey smoke is an indication of condensation, cold cylinders (faulty glowplugs on start-up) or coolant getting into the bores via damaged cylinder head gasket, cracked or porous block or head or damaged cylinder liners perhaps. None of this was present before so there's really no way that any of this could have occurred while dismantled.

There's no warning 'tell-tales' on the dash to indicate an electronic fault with injectors or anything else.

As I wrote earlier, the first successful start-up (again after much bleeding of the fuel at the injectors) produced no smoke and now it looks dense English fog that your forebears escaped from in 1604 in search of tobacco.

Any ideas?

Once more, any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I just thought i'd add another noticeable feature.

I tried to gently increase engine speed from idle to see if there's any change.

I let the speed creep up to 1500 RPM and then without any further depression of the throttle pedal it shot up to 2,500 RPM. I let off and it returned to idle.

I did this a few more times and the same occurred. It would not rise steadily with pedal movement but changed from about 1,500 RPM to 2,500 RPM and the smoke was worse than ever. Thick white smoke.

Baffling.