Can't Find Coolant Leak

Macarter83 · **Joined:** Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:09 pm **Posts:** 5

Thanks for the help in advance guys (first time posting)....

I have a coolant leak and can not find it. After reading about others problems on the board I assumed it was a HG failure. I took it to a shop for diagnosis, whetzel auto (as recommended on the board) and they can't find anything wrong with the damned thing.

It has passed block and pressure tests cold and at operating temp..... They are going to try again on Monday but if they don't try anything new what is the point?

The diesel runs perfectly but coolant doesn't just disappear does it? Probably a quart missing in a 2-3 week period

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:40 am

Thoughts:
1. have you tried the simple pressure leak into coolant test per discussion at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76529
2. there are chemical tests for combustion gas in coolant and coolant in oil
3. amount of coolant lost over time means less than amount of coolant lost vs. miles. Is that 2-3 week period 10 miles driven or 2,500 miles driven. In any case if the above 2 tests don't show anything then add UV dye to the coolant; drive for few days; look for leaks with UV light in shade not bright sun. Don't forget to check the area of the EGR cooler (driver's side toward rear of engine) and oil cooler (passenger side in front of turbo).
4. turn heater on; does air smell of antifreeze or does the water dripping out of the HIVAC drip tube (firewall in front of passenger) "taste" of antifreeze = leaky heater core.

naturist · **Posted:** Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:21 am

One of the places coolant can leak that is not often discussed is the hoses down by the turbo that go to the EGR cooler. I had those leak at one point, requiring hose replacement. Of course, since the leak was right next to the exhaust, it did not create puddles, it got vaporized as we drove around. It took the UV leak detection dealio to find it. The labor involved quite a bit of time but the hoses themselves were pretty cheap.

(it should be noted that there are two valves sometimes called EGR valves, one in the exhaust and one in the intake -- the latter of which is also called the Flow Control Valve sometimes). Both are needed to insure that exhaust gases actually make it back into the engine.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:36 am

Was the thermostat replaced recently?

Macarter83 · **Joined:** Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:09 pm **Posts:** 5

1. have you tried the simple pressure leak into coolant test per discussion at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76529
No just 2 bolck tests and 2 pressure tests, i will try this when i get it back on monday, thanks.

2. there are chemical tests for combustion gas in coolant and coolant in oil
I think this is what the shop is calling the block test? basically if the color goes from blue to yellow you have eg in your coolant.... the liberty passed this test twice

3. amount of coolant lost over time means less than amount of coolant lost vs. miles. Is that 2-3 week period 10 miles driven or 2,500 miles driven. In any case if the above 2 tests don't show anything then add UV dye to the coolant; drive for few days; look for leaks with UV light in shade not bright sun. Don't forget to check the area of the EGR cooler (driver's side toward rear of engine) and oil cooler (passenger side in front of turbo).
right at 1200 miles in the last 3 weeks according to my fuel mileage app, I am going to do the uv on my own if the shop does not want too

4. turn heater on; does air smell of antifreeze or does the water dripping out of the HIVAC drip tube (firewall in front of passenger) "taste" of antifreeze = leaky heater core.
i will do this, thanks

Macarter83 · **Joined:** Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:09 pm **Posts:** 5

racertracer wrote:

Was the thermostat replaced recently?

Yes it was, but i went the easy/cheap route and added an in line thermostat. That was probably about 5 weeks ago and i lost very little coolant at the time. I installed that thermostat based on board instructions (part number and drilling a 1/8th hole). Since then, the coolant temp has been perfect, no spiking and sitting right where it should.

Timeline:

8 Weeks ago: Bought the truck from a jeep dealer, they had already replaced all glow plugs and i gave them full asking price of 10k and they threw in the timing belt / water pump service (I wish i would have taken it somewhere else at a later date knowing more about the head bolt issues now, i would have swapped in the arp) the darn truck had the low coolant light on when i got it.... but it was all new coolant and i figured it just burped....

5 weeks ago: I was not happy with the mileage i was getting and noticed that the truck never got to operating temp. so i did the inline thermostat (added coolant at that time and idled the truck for 45 minutes with the cap off (also did the alternator and serp belt because of the horrible noises i heard while doing this)

3 weeks ago: the coolant light came on and i chalked it up to air and added some coolant

1 week ago: the coolant light came on and my stomach turned to knots, and everything smells like coolant to me... maybe i am paranoid but i swear i smell it in the exhaust.... i got a shop name off the board and from what they say they have done a lot of tb jobs and a few hg jobs.... just one guy does these jeeps in the shop, that made me comfortable

Friday: they call me and say that they cant find diddly, ran pressure and dye test at op temp and cold... they left friday evening with the system pressurized, they tell me that even if the leak is tiny that over a 2 day period the pressure gauge will tell them.... i really hope that works, it is not that i want to spend the money on the motor tear down...... what do you guys think? if it doesnt loose pressure over the weekend it doesnt have any leaks right? head gasket or otherwise? and i am just burning 20 dollar bills on a goose chase because i didnt get all of the air out when i did the inline thermostat.....

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:23 pm

Where are you located?

From the other thread:

Checking the head gasket is simple:
On a COLD COLD COLD engine, open the radiator cap. Ignore any pressure that may exist and release. Hot engines NORMALLY develop some pressure in the radiator system, and it might not release as the system cools. Don't be scared just yet.
Close the radiator cap securely.
Start the engine, run it for 30 seconds or so, no more. Shut off.
Open the radiator cap again - This time, listen carefully for any pressure release. Is there any?
If yes: You have a head gasket problem brewing.
If no: GOOD! Monitor for any coolant loss over time, look for possible hose weeping / white traces around hoses that might show where the minerals have been drying as they leak with the coolant. It could also (very likely) be a leak at the water pump itself, because that pump is 8 years old now, along with the belt. Seals don't last forever.

If it IS the head gasket... You might want to do the ARP studs, but you also could (theoretically) just tighten all the factory bolts in-place. It is a pain getting to them, but this is an option if money is an issue and you are doing the work yourself. Please - do the work yourself, NEVER take it to a dealership. The factory bolts do NOT stretch, but may not have been installed with enough torque from the factory.

I realize that you *think* your CRD has a new water pump and timing belt... And maybe it does. But that doesn't mean that they installed the parts correctly. If the water pump was installed by only using the front half OR they buggered the gasket (or didn't replace it at all!) on the back half of the pump... You could be in a world of leaking.

The two halves are sealed by a VERY thin o-ring, which could have been pinched / not installed properly, or the aforementioned gasket issues could be the source. The UV trace may be your only way of finding out for sure.

Macarter83 · **Joined:** Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:09 pm **Posts:** 5

geordi wrote:

Where are you located?

From the other thread:

Checking the head gasket is simple:
On a COLD COLD COLD engine, open the radiator cap. Ignore any pressure that may exist and release. Hot engines NORMALLY develop some pressure in the radiator system, and it might not release as the system cools. Don't be scared just yet.
Close the radiator cap securely.
Start the engine, run it for 30 seconds or so, no more. Shut off.
Open the radiator cap again - This time, listen carefully for any pressure release. Is there any?
If yes: You have a head gasket problem brewing.
If no: GOOD! Monitor for any coolant loss over time, look for possible hose weeping / white traces around hoses that might show where the minerals have been drying as they leak with the coolant. It could also (very likely) be a leak at the water pump itself, because that pump is 8 years old now, along with the belt. Seals don't last forever.

If it IS the head gasket... You might want to do the ARP studs, but you also could (theoretically) just tighten all the factory bolts in-place. It is a pain getting to them, but this is an option if money is an issue and you are doing the work yourself. Please - do the work yourself, NEVER take it to a dealership. The factory bolts do NOT stretch, but may not have been installed with enough torque from the factory.

I realize that you *think* your CRD has a new water pump and timing belt... And maybe it does. But that doesn't mean that they installed the parts correctly. If the water pump was installed by only using the front half OR they buggered the gasket (or didn't replace it at all!) on the back half of the pump... You could be in a world of leaking.

The two halves are sealed by a VERY thin o-ring, which could have been pinched / not installed properly, or the aforementioned gasket issues could be the source. The UV trace may be your only way of finding out for sure.

I am in Lexington, SC

When i get the Jeep back from the shop i will do this test, thanks.

I hope that the receipt I have from the local jeep dealer listing a new timing belt, water pump, pulleys, gaskets, and 10 hours of labor insures that the parts were actually installed but you are right, i have no proof that they did it other than a piece of paper and no proof that the job was done well......

brando26 · **Joined:** Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:17 am **Posts:** 15

End result?

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flman · **Posted:** Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:45 pm

brando26 wrote:

End result?

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Why, do you have a mysterious coolant leak? Usually a bad sign on these CRDs.

jburford · **Posted:** Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:33 pm

The head gasket leak attributed to the Liberty CRD is not actually a failure of the head gasket. I believe the problem is unequal cylinder sleeve to deck heights during original assembly. Additionally, over time "creep" (plastic material flow due to heat, time, and stress) decreases the clamping load between the cylinder sleeves and the head. The material creep is localized under the head bolts.

The lose of clamping occurs or manifests under heavy engine load which invalidates most head gasket failure tests. Basically, the head gasket is fine. The problem is clamping of the head bolts.

This failure can be identified by coolant loss during heavy driving through the coolant tank overflow. The coolant will spray on the firewall and run along the frame rail to just under the passenger door.

John Burford

flman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:16 am

jburford wrote:

The head gasket leak attributed to the Liberty CRD is not actually a failure of the head gasket. I believe the problem is unequal cylinder sleeve to deck heights during original assembly. Additionally, over time "creep" (plastic material flow due to heat, time, and stress) decreases the clamping load between the cylinder sleeves and the head. The material creep is localized under the head bolts.

The lose of clamping occurs or manifests under heavy engine load which invalidates most head gasket failure tests. Basically, the head gasket is fine. The problem is clamping of the head bolts.

This failure can be identified by coolant loss during heavy driving through the coolant tank overflow. The coolant will spray on the firewall and run along the frame rail to just under the passenger door.

John Burford

I have a head off right now, I put a straight edge across them and they all seem fine.

pwrwagn · **Joined:** Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:40 am **Posts:** 192

Welcome to the club of "can't find water leak".

I was desperately afraid I had a head gasket leak or head leak, but now I don't think so. Mine was losing an inch of coolant in the reservoir each time I drove it. Then, I added some stop leak. It quit. Then leaked again. then stopped. Once a blue moon just as it's warming up, I detect a faint trace of antifreeze smell both inside and outside ( it gets into the heater???) and then its gone. The heater doesn't fog the windows, even when I'm obvious losing coolant. Nor does it commonly smell of antifreeze after sitting.

Last week I checked the vitals on morning and found the coolant nearly a quart low. Then, for the next 5 days, no loss at all. None. Tomorrow I'm going to try to find a self service car wash and clean underhood as much as I can, and then add the dye to the coolant and see if it will appear anywhere.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:01 pm

jburford wrote:

The head gasket leak attributed to the Liberty CRD is not actually a failure of the head gasket. I believe the problem is unequal cylinder sleeve to deck heights during original assembly. Additionally, over time "creep" (plastic material flow due to heat, time, and stress) decreases the clamping load between the cylinder sleeves and the head. The material creep is localized under the head bolts.

The lose of clamping occurs or manifests under heavy engine load which invalidates most head gasket failure tests. Basically, the head gasket is fine. The problem is clamping of the head bolts.

This failure can be identified by coolant loss during heavy driving through the coolant tank overflow. The coolant will spray on the firewall and run along the frame rail to just under the passenger door.

John Burford

How did you confirm your finding?

Glend · **Posted:** Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:03 pm

If it is leaking into a cylinder you won't see anything as it will be burnt during combustion. I'd try a compression leak down test on all cylinders, with cooling system cap off and unpressurised.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:30 pm

A combustion leak detector kit would be the best way, make sure you get a kit that detects diesel. Mine ran 14K with a HG leak, and ran like a top, maybe the water made it run better yet? If you see fluid in the secondary recovery bottle, to the right with the looking under the hood, that could be a blown HG.

Here is a symptom mine exhibited

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs

brando26 · **Joined:** Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:17 am **Posts:** 15

Son of a... this is exactly what mine does.

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crdjoe · **Posted:** Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:29 pm

Hello CRD people I will tell you my experience I now have a new long block compliments of Chrysler extended warranty I hope I'm not bringing you bad news but the truth is the truth I bought my CRD in Aug. of 09 from the first owner 2 weeks before I bought it they broke a glow plug off in the head and had to remove it I got it and occasionally it would lose fluid about a quarter inch or so from the degasser or bottle so erratically that I finally took a sharpie and put a line on the bottle months could go by and no loss than there would be loss. I went to Yosemite, Sequoia, Vegas, and the Grand Canyon in a 2 week period Aug. and Sept. of 2013, 7600 miles she started leaking a 1/2 inch a day in Yosemite When I got back I found the leak I thought was the head gasket took to the dealer they had it on the hoist for 2 weeks finally a week later they pulled the transmission and pressurized the coolant system it dribbled out of the block on the backside below the head gasket you really couldn't see a crack but it was there. Maybe its a casting flaw I almost replaced every hose on it that I hadn't replaced, this crack is not really viewable unless the trans is out and the motor tilts back. I myself thought about using that expensive sealer with the carbon fiber in it I thought the dealer would do this! So I'm sorry for my bad news but its better to know than not to know. :banghead:

Can't Find Coolant Leak

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