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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:31 pm 
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Auberon wrote:
Not content with that- cleaner oil with less extraneous matter namely (particulates- ie: soot) offers a lower frictional coefficient. Does it not?
If angular coalescing particulates can be more effectively remove it must help.
Read the real numbers from FleetGuard etc - this has been proven repeatedly:
Work done by tribologists per SAE 710813 and 790089
Upper Conrod bearing seal wear reduces from reduced by 30% wear
Lower conrod bearing shell wear is reduced by 63%
Upper mainbearing seal is reduced to 49% less wear
and lower main bearing shell is reduced by 64%
These figures are reflect the gains between full flow only compared to full flow AND by-pass.

Has merit to me.


I would be curious to see what the actual wear numbers were before and after. 64% less than something very close to zero is basically 0, if you get what I am saying.

$529 is a lot of money to increase the OCI from 6.5k to 20k if you are not putting a lot of miles on the jeep. What is the advantage of this over what Amsoil's Remote Bypass kits offer

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:36 pm 
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I run a bypass filter on all of our vehicles. GM 6.5 diesels.

I'm a believer. Got 500,000 miles on the 6.5 I installed in the 1989 C2500 after getting 300,000 miles on the 6.2 that it came with. I use Amsoil 5w30 in the GM 6.5 diesels and Amsoil fluids everywhere.
The 89 had the original trans and rear end. Neither had ever been touched.

I don't know if it was luck or good maintenance. But I just keep doing the same things. We have about 300,000 miles on each of our vehicles now

We've been running 20,000 mile oil changes for quite a few years

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2006 Jeep Liberty CRD 142,000 miles New engine 2-2014, Green Eco tune, FS2500 bypass filter Weeks elbow, European Torque converter, brakes front UCA's wheel bearing and front hubs. Front hitch OEM lift pump
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5td
96 K1500 " 6.5td
95 2 door Tahoe 6.5td
94 K3500 cc srw 5 speed 6.5td
91 International Model 6 speed spicer 4700


Last edited by jrsavoie on Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:58 pm 
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The numbers get really complicated and the real values are very very guarded.
This is a case of if your a believer - then go for it.
Why does some guy stick thousands of $'s into a sound system when the next guy is happy with stock and feels it blows his (or her) ear drums out).
An implied wear rate of 0 is just not possible when friction is considered and that shows a very good misunderstanding of why oil needs to be clean.
There are known wear rates for particular engines and these are the benchmarks used to determine the gains of by-pass filtration. This becomes a very complex algorithm. Now the question becomes which one do you consider? Each and every engine has a definite predicted end of life under certain operating conditions. It's actually been entered into some legislation to lend a hand to turn-over of vehicles to the newer less polluting jobs - forcing you to trade in.
Then there is the ideas behind (re particles) Martins' diameter, equivalent area diameter and Feret's diameter when one considers particulates and their contribution to wear.
Then one gets into the known algorithms and choosing which published algortithm to use to determine optimal oil drain interval in (fleet management as they are the only ones with real numbers in quantity) running standard engine configuration: that would mean choosing between the Kublin Method or perhaps the Paradise garage Method or perhaps the Heidbrecht method.

This gives known benchmarking as a basis for comparison.
On that note this is not my discussion to carry - I believe in the fact that the cleaner the oil the better - end of story.


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:18 pm 
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For me, another, and important aspect of using the bypass filter is the time between OCI.
I am a very busy individual, and 6500 miles always seemed to come up too quick and at the wrong time.
Between my other vehicles and the race car, which I maintain completely by myself now, time is short.
20K+, using a good oil, seems to fit me rather well.

BTW-I am still a little skeptical, BUT, I can not refute the UOA numbers at this time.

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EHM, MagnaFlow SS Cat Back, FS-2500, HDS 001 TStat, Some Gauges, PML Trans Pan, PML Diff Cover, Marinco Mod, FIA Blanket, Cooper Discoverer ATR 225/75, CTS 245/70, Front-JBA 2.25" C/Os, Rear-OME HD, JBA UCA, SS Brake Lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:24 am 
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Auberon wrote:
The numbers get really complicated and the real values are very very guarded.
This is a case of if your a believer - then go for it.
Why does some guy stick thousands of $'s into a sound system when the next guy is happy with stock and feels it blows his (or her) ear drums out).
An implied wear rate of 0 is just not possible when friction is considered and that shows a very good misunderstanding of why oil needs to be clean.
There are known wear rates for particular engines and these are the benchmarks used to determine the gains of by-pass filtration. This becomes a very complex algorithm. Now the question becomes which one do you consider? Each and every engine has a definite predicted end of life under certain operating conditions. It's actually been entered into some legislation to lend a hand to turn-over of vehicles to the newer less polluting jobs - forcing you to trade in.
Then there is the ideas behind (re particles) Martins' diameter, equivalent area diameter and Feret's diameter when one considers particulates and their contribution to wear.
Then one gets into the known algorithms and choosing which published algortithm to use to determine optimal oil drain interval in (fleet management as they are the only ones with real numbers in quantity) running standard engine configuration: that would mean choosing between the Kublin Method or perhaps the Paradise garage Method or perhaps the Heidbrecht method.

This gives known benchmarking as a basis for comparison.
On that note this is not my discussion to carry - I believe in the fact that the cleaner the oil the better - end of story.


I understand. I did not literally mean that there was zero wear, what I was implying was that the wear on the engine without the bypass could possibly be insubstantial, meaning that the wear would be so little that it has no effect on the engine over the course of a reasonable engine lifetime(not a million bazillion miles because the rest of the car would probably fall apart first.) If that were the case, the 64% reduced wear hardly seems worth it. All I am saying is that it is not defined and therefore I am skeptical as to the actual benefits.

As to the increased OCI, I fully understand that it benefits some people and I did say that it makes sense if you put a lot of miles on your car. I change my oil 2-3x a year and the expense just does not seem worth it for MY specific situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:33 am 
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For those who are not happy with this as an idea with merit go the other way about it - don't just complain that you don't like it as an idea find REAL tribolgy that discounts the idea with facts figures and prove your point. Then please find published numbers that one loses by adding a by-pass filter unit.

Just opinion of "I don't like it" doesn't cut it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:10 pm 
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"I don't like it" works fine for me.

I've seen lots of Lab stuff that doesn't transfer to the real world, although it tends to be a good starting point.

and frankly Fleetgaurd data is for Cummins trying for million mile long haul trucks - again the translation to a standard daily driver can be questionable.

The real data on this thread is that Bypass filters cost money, installation takes some time and effort.

your Return on that Investment - is highly dependent on other variables.

mainly how often do you change you oil?

if you're following Jeep recommendations I'd like to see the data that a bypass buys you anything at all.

the folks really interested are trying to push oil changes to 10- 20K miles, and for them it makes sense (and cents)

'The bypass increases mileage' is about as well documented as those HHO bubblers

of the CRD's sold in the US the vast majority will never make 250,000 miles
and of those very,very few will be with one owner.

so the 'payback' on a bypass - is the 'GeeWhiz' affect on other dieselheads.

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:07 pm 
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ATXKJ wrote:
"I don't like it" works fine for me.

I've seen lots of Lab stuff that doesn't transfer to the real world, although it tends to be a good starting point.

and frankly Fleetgaurd data is for Cummins trying for million mile long haul trucks - again the translation to a standard daily driver can be questionable.

The real data on this thread is that Bypass filters cost money, installation takes some time and effort.

your Return on that Investment - is highly dependent on other variables.

mainly how often do you change you oil?

if you're following Jeep recommendations I'd like to see the data that a bypass buys you anything at all.

the folks really interested are trying to push oil changes to 10- 20K miles, and for them it makes sense (and cents)

'The bypass increases mileage' is about as well documented as those HHO bubblers

of the CRD's sold in the US the vast majority will never make 250,000 miles
and of those very,very few will be with one owner.

so the 'payback' on a bypass - is the 'GeeWhiz' affect on other dieselheads.



100% AGREE. I would not waist my time and or money.

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05 Liberty CRD Sport with Leather 115k
GDE ECO, No EGR, no FCV, (system gone)
Oil Drain plug P/N 090-039
K&N Air Filter, 2nd gen Fuel filter head
NEW Rockers & lifters
Mobil 1 0w-40
Stant 13519 195 deg inline Thermostat.
0 281 002 845 MAP
Etecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs
Advance Gold 800CCA Battery
Traded it for a Quality VW TDI


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:00 am 
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The only way to establish that a bypass filter would affect the mileage is to have meticulous records for many months of fillups and mileages (hopefully with routes / highway-city percentages) to establish a statistical baseline... Then do that same amount of data on the back end after installation.

Weather, fuel variations, traffic... And many more factors will increase the entropy on the data, such that I do not believe anyone would ever be fully convinced if they were not already wiling to accept the possibilities.

HOWEVER - I have now seen the top end of an engine that has been running this filter for a short time. A very short time. The freshest filter will trap the large particles, and very rapidly extract 75%+ of contaminants from the oil that the full-flow filter misses. Subsequent drive time will cycle the oil through, to a point where the oil will be so clean that the filter reaches a point of diminishing returns on further filtering cycles. This is not a bad thing, that just means that the oil is as clean as it can possibly be, and it should stay that way as long as the bypass filter remains effective.

I do not know how many hours of operation are on this first filter... BUT the oil on the top of the engine looked fantastic. If someone had told me that a bottle of fresh oil had spilled all over the rockers and head deck... I would have believed them.

For me, I am considering one of these now. Not because I think it will increase my mileage, or because I plan to increase my OCI (I'm not - 6k is the limit) but because I know that no matter what else... SOOT KILLS and SOOT HAPPENS.

Comparing the full flow to a bypass in how they trap dirt... Is like comparing a cargo net to a window screen. The full flow really can only get the big stuff - things that are large enough to be seen with the naked eye. Small stuff that scours the engine's parts just fly right through that filter. That is OK, the bypass filter would grab them.

Will always having oil-bottle-fresh clean oil help mileage? Well, I can believe that it would be easier to pump, flow, reduce friction, reduce pump loading... So I think it is *possible*... But that isn't why I will probably do it. I want my TDI to not only hit 300k miles, but 400k and on.

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:37 am 
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geordi wrote:
The only way to establish that a bypass filter would affect the mileage is to have meticulous records for many months of fillups and mileages (hopefully with routes / highway-city percentages) to establish a statistical baseline... Then do that same amount of data on the back end after installation.

Weather, fuel variations, traffic... And many more factors will increase the entropy on the data, such that I do not believe anyone would ever be fully convinced if they were not already wiling to accept the possibilities.

HOWEVER - I have now seen the top end of an engine that has been running this filter for a short time. A very short time. The freshest filter will trap the large particles, and very rapidly extract 75%+ of contaminants from the oil that the full-flow filter misses. Subsequent drive time will cycle the oil through, to a point where the oil will be so clean that the filter reaches a point of diminishing returns on further filtering cycles. This is not a bad thing, that just means that the oil is as clean as it can possibly be, and it should stay that way as long as the bypass filter remains effective.

I do not know how many hours of operation are on this first filter... BUT the oil on the top of the engine looked fantastic. If someone had told me that a bottle of fresh oil had spilled all over the rockers and head deck... I would have believed them.

For me, I am considering one of these now. Not because I think it will increase my mileage, or because I plan to increase my OCI (I'm not - 6k is the limit) but because I know that no matter what else... SOOT KILLS and SOOT HAPPENS.

Comparing the full flow to a bypass in how they trap dirt... Is like comparing a cargo net to a window screen. The full flow really can only get the big stuff - things that are large enough to be seen with the naked eye. Small stuff that scours the engine's parts just fly right through that filter. That is OK, the bypass filter would grab them.

Will always having oil-bottle-fresh clean oil help mileage? Well, I can believe that it would be easier to pump, flow, reduce friction, reduce pump loading... So I think it is *possible*... But that isn't why I will probably do it. I want my TDI to not only hit 300k miles, but 400k and on.


Okay....am with you..totally. Now, try to do research and filter out the plants from the real assessments and tell me if the Amsoil is better than the FS-2500 !!! I am looking at the Amsoil General Use Dual Remote Bypass Kit BMK23 or the FS-2500 like User113 has. http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/f ... %2fbf.aspx

Hmmmmmm

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:40 am 
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With these filters, you will probably realize an actual slight decrease in fuel mileage do to the weight of the unit and the extra oil. But then again, that might be made up for by the cleaner oil, resulting in a break even situation on the fuel mileage.

I've been sold on these for many years. I am using both the FS2500 and the Amsoil bypass filters. Used to be the FS2500 was hands down better than the Amsoil. Amsoil came out with better filter elements several years ago and the filters are now closer together in quality and performance

They did not include the Amsoil or the FS2500 in this test. Interesting reading, none the less

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2006 Jeep Liberty CRD 142,000 miles New engine 2-2014, Green Eco tune, FS2500 bypass filter Weeks elbow, European Torque converter, brakes front UCA's wheel bearing and front hubs. Front hitch OEM lift pump
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5td
96 K1500 " 6.5td
95 2 door Tahoe 6.5td
94 K3500 cc srw 5 speed 6.5td
91 International Model 6 speed spicer 4700


Last edited by jrsavoie on Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Originally, when I was looking at these, I researched the Amsoil pretty hard. The problem is that there wasn't a clear path to determining which pieces were needed for a kit. Overall, it may be cheaper to go this way. The thing in their favor is that their are a lot of vendors and getting replacement filters should be easy. However, given time and convenience, I went with the FS-2500 because it was a complete kit with instructions and a secure mounting solution.

As stated before, I went with a bypass system in order to extend oil change intervals because I'm moving and may not have a place to conveniently change my oil. It also saves me the time and effort of properly disposing of oil since I won't be accumulating as much volume when doing service. It wasn't done as a measure to save money other than I was able to justify to myself since it would be break even proposition after 100,000 miles based on my oil change behavior. My MAF readings are borderline, my rockers are probably worn, and I thought if the oil was kept cleaner, a potential bonus would be that I could get it to that next timing belt change at 200K miles and replace all of that at the same time.

I did double check the FS2500 crew's website. They suggest that one may see a modest increase in fuel economy. They give no definite numbers. I've seen a 10% in my economy. But the time of my install coincides with relocating (to Richmond, VA from Sanford, MI), a change in climate, a change in elevation (700 vs 200 feet above sea level), change in driving style, and fuel quality. And according to one poster, I guess I can infer that the cleaner oil must have repaired something inside my engine...new concept to me.

I think the majority of improvement is due to fuel quality and less wind, but the style of driving here is also more aggressive, but the speeds are a little slower. If there was any improvement in fuel economy due solely to installation of a bypass filter, I'd only anticipate 1% at most. However, as stated before, it would be interesting to see if others who have installed a system, who keep meticulous records see a change in fuel economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:14 pm 
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If you install a system like this. I think you would need a higher volume oil pump so parts of the engine don't get less oil. Just because oil is clean dose not mean its protecting the bearings.

A lot of us have had our oil tested with no issues.

If engine MFG's thought these systems were needed they would test them on their engines and install them. I don't recall a system like these installed on any MB engines? They have millions of miles on their engines.

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05 Liberty CRD Sport with Leather 115k
GDE ECO, No EGR, no FCV, (system gone)
Oil Drain plug P/N 090-039
K&N Air Filter, 2nd gen Fuel filter head
NEW Rockers & lifters
Mobil 1 0w-40
Stant 13519 195 deg inline Thermostat.
0 281 002 845 MAP
Etecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs
Advance Gold 800CCA Battery
Traded it for a Quality VW TDI


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:10 pm 
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kjjet wrote:
If engine MFG's thought these systems were needed they would test them on their engines and install them. I don't recall a system like these installed on any MB engines? They have millions of miles on their engines.


This is a logically flawed argument. For 80 years, cars have had dipsticks on the engine and transmission. GM and Ford are now producing and selling vehicles that lack one of these things. Does this mean that the transmissions are now magically not needing service?

Maybe the answer is - they are declaring that the transmission is a "lifetime" part, when the "lifetime" they are referring to is just the 100k mile term of the warranty. If that is the answer, then there is no point in THEM spending any money on a dipstick that won't really be needed until the warranty expires, when they no longer care about that vehicle.

"If product X was so great, every maker would be putting it on their cars at the factory" forgets one major key thing:

Car makers are in the business of ensuring that you continue to buy cars. They DO NOT WANT your vehicle to last "forever" like that guy with the 3 million mile Volvo he bought new in 1963. To them, he is a lost customer and lost money.
Anything that benefits the buyer, in terms of longevity, ease of maintenance, or durability... That is not something to prioritize at the manufacturing level. GM didn't sell a car with more than 2 gears for DECADES after they became available. Why? Adding more gears only COST them money, they don't care that it made the car more efficient or drive smoother / quieter. Those are benefits to the buyer.

I firmly believe that if the manufacturers could legally design cars with set expiration dates that would force you to buy another car after X number of years... They would. You have to look at what FLEETS are doing. What do fleets do? The same thing we do: Modify a class of vehicle for durability, longevity of the components / vehicle, and try to squeeze every drop of efficiency from the platform that is possible.

We might actually (as a group) be the most effective fleet managers ever, because so many of us are determined to develop and share mods and tips to keep these things on the road when Chrysler seems to have done everything possible to do the opposite.

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Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:22 am 
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I have no additional tech to add, but geordi, you said a mouthful!
Amen.

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:25 am 
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user113,
Can you post the instructions of the FS-2500 on this site. I would like a copy.


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Because I had nothing better to do at work today. . . .

Image
Image
Image

These are calculated with manufacturer claims. Filtration solutions by-pass filter is changed every 10k miles, amsoil's by-pass is changed every 2nd oil change or 40k miles(which is why the line squiggles). Full Flow filters are changed every oil change.

Prices reflect what I paid for rotella T6 and Wix 51515 oil filter 2 weeks ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:50 pm 
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Do you think Rotella T6 is an appropriate oil to run out for very long OCIs ?

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EHM, MagnaFlow SS Cat Back, FS-2500, HDS 001 TStat, Some Gauges, PML Trans Pan, PML Diff Cover, Marinco Mod, FIA Blanket, Cooper Discoverer ATR 225/75, CTS 245/70, Front-JBA 2.25" C/Os, Rear-OME HD, JBA UCA, SS Brake Lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:26 am 
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Don't know anything about that oil. I would search for independent oil testing. I've had long term good results with Amsoil and just stick with it.

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2006 Jeep Liberty CRD 142,000 miles New engine 2-2014, Green Eco tune, FS2500 bypass filter Weeks elbow, European Torque converter, brakes front UCA's wheel bearing and front hubs. Front hitch OEM lift pump
98 K2500 Suburban 6.5td
96 K1500 " 6.5td
95 2 door Tahoe 6.5td
94 K3500 cc srw 5 speed 6.5td
91 International Model 6 speed spicer 4700


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 Post subject: Re: Bypass Filter FS-2500
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:53 am 
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DocB wrote:
Do you think Rotella T6 is an appropriate oil to run out for very long OCIs ?


I am not sure honestly. I've never done extended OCI's because the vehicles I have either get changed once a year(my motorcycle) or get 3000 mile changes because the turbo is maxxed out and known to fail(Subaru Legacy GT). I do use Rotella T6 in both vehicles though based on extremely positive Blackstone tests from other owners.

If you have something else I can pretty easily punch in the new price and have it recalculate in about 5 seconds. A more expensive oil should make the By-Pass pay off faster, as the oil is the primary expense on the non-By-Pass vehicle.

If it makes anyone feel better, I just did my first oil change on my Jeep and I am now considering one of these By-Pass setups. The dealer I purchased the Jeep from put in whatever oil was recommended in the manual less than 1200 miles before I changed it. I wanted to get fresh oil in since i had unplugged the MAF and did the EHM. Even at 1200 miles i was amazed at how bad the oil looked and felt. You could tell it did not feel like regular oil on your hands.

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2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs


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