Had ARP studs installed and now no turbo boost...

sbohner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:20 am

Had ARP studs installed and now no turbo boost. The diesel mechanic first took it out for a drive after the install and it seemed to run reasonably well. Then he said it had a pop-pop sound and then started kicking black exhaust and having no turbo boost. I've been looking for potential causes, but none have presented themselves.

The mechanic followed the boost lead and tried to replace MAP sensor - no luck. Now he has discovered that the barring is got a lot of play and is looking at a turbo rebuild. Before we go too far down this road, I was wondering what you folks think. Any help would certainly be appreciated.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:33 am

I've posted some low/no boost thoughts at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76889

The pop sound makes me wonder if one of the 2 CAC hoses has popped off at one end or simply blown. If not popped off the 2 CAC hoses need to be pulled and carefully inspected.

Can I assume as part of the ARP stud install at 105K + miles that the timing belt has been done?

How much play on the turbo bearing? Slight fore/aft and barely perceptible side to side is ok; more is not ok. If more stop driving immediately as significant turbo shaft play likely is a bad bearing (actually not a normal roller bearing rather a bronze sleeve and the "bearing" is an oil film between the sleeve and the turbo shaft) which when it goes completely can dump all the oil out of the pan in a heartbeat and destroy the engine bottom end. FYI these turbo's are NOT rebuildable per Garrett and those that have tried (geordi) have had no success. Right now the only viable option in my opinion is a new turbo from like IDparts or if you are lucky Keith at GDE. Garrett has just started offering factory rebuilt turbos but not yet for us.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:38 am

What is the oil level?

Did you check the rockers when the studs were installed?

Also I would steer clear of rebuilt turbos.

sbohner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:57 am

Thanks Papaindigo,

I'm actually up to 126K and the timing belt was done with the water pump awhile back. So, the only things done this time was a new lift pump (inline) and the ARP studs.

The mechanic said that the bearing has a lot of play fore/aft. He is looking into aftermarket parts right now. If I need a new turbo, what is your recommendation? ... Green Diesel Engineering if he has one?

Again, thanks!

papaindigo wrote:

I've posted some low/no boost thoughts at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76889

The pop sound makes me wonder if one of the 2 CAC hoses has popped off at one end or simply blown. If not popped off the 2 CAC hoses need to be pulled and carefully inspected.

Can I assume as part of the ARP stud install at 105K + miles that the timing belt has been done?

How much play on the turbo bearing? Slight fore/aft and barely perceptible side to side is ok; more is not ok. If more stop driving immediately as significant turbo shaft play likely is a bad bearing (actually not a normal roller bearing rather a bronze sleeve and the "bearing" is an oil film between the sleeve and the turbo shaft) which when it goes completely can dump all the oil out of the pan in a heartbeat and destroy the engine bottom end. FYI these turbo's are NOT rebuildable per Garrett and those that have tried (geordi) have had no success. Right now the only viable option in my opinion is a new turbo from like IDparts or if you are lucky Keith at GDE. Garrett has just started offering factory rebuilt turbos but not yet for us.

sbohner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:00 am

Thanks LMWatBullRun,

So far good oil, and plenty of pressure in the CAC hoses. Thanks for the warning on rebuild turbos... I assume that many folks have had bad experiences?

Thanks again!

LMWatBullRun wrote:

What is the oil level?

Did you check the rockers when the studs were installed?

Also I would steer clear of rebuilt turbos.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:10 am

X2 on what PapaI said.

If there is more than slight fore and aft play time for a new turbo.

sbohner wrote:

Thanks Papaindigo,
The mechanic said that the bearing has a lot of play fore/aft. He is looking into aftermarket parts right now. If I need a new turbo, what is your recommendation? ... Green Diesel Engineering if he has one?

papaindigo wrote:

I've posted some low/no boost thoughts at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76889

How much play on the turbo bearing? Slight fore/aft and barely perceptible side to side is ok; more is not ok. If more stop driving immediately as significant turbo shaft play likely is a bad bearing (actually not a normal roller bearing rather a bronze sleeve and the "bearing" is an oil film between the sleeve and the turbo shaft) which when it goes completely can dump all the oil out of the pan in a heartbeat and destroy the engine bottom end. FYI these turbo's are NOT rebuildable per Garrett and those that have tried (geordi) have had no success. Right now the only viable option in my opinion is a new turbo from like IDparts or if you are lucky Keith at GDE. Garrett has just started offering factory rebuilt turbos but not yet for us.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:35 am

Sometimes Keith at GDE has really good turbo deals so it's worth checking otherwise I'd go with IDparts as they are good folks and stand behind what they sell with generally competitive prices. A Garratt dealer could probably also supply the turbo but when I've seen their prices it's no better than IDparts.

While I'd agree a "lot" of fore/aft play is a very bad turbo sign I'd want to personally see what he means by a "lot". Thickness of a sheet of paper may be ok more than that means new turbo time.

Assuming the actual play is not a "lot" check those other things I mentioned.

If the turbo does have to be replaced:
1. start soaking the 4 "jam" nuts on the turbo to manifold studs with good penetrating lube at least 24hrs before attempting removal. The studs are weak and break easily and are a bast@@d to remove (as geordi and I well know). Frankly I'd throw away the "jam" nuts in favor of new grade 5 nuts and regular lock washers on the reinstall.
2. it's metal and probably reusable but doesn't cost much so get a new turbo to manifold gasket
3. the oil supply line is a metal to metal fit (no gasket) on the block but the turbo side uses copper crush washers which IDparts supplies.
4. I think newer versions of the supply line have a flexible section which might be a good idea although things are pretty solidly locked together. If you reuse your old supply line best to flush it with like brake cleaner to remove any possible inside crud.
5. oil return line is gravity fed and has IIRC a gasket at the top (can be cut from any decent oil proof gasket material) and a press fit rubber grommet at the block end. You can probably reuse the rubber grommet but when I did my Stage II turbo a new grommet was under $10 via my friendly DCJ parts manager.

hucorey · **Joined:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:29 am **Posts:** 378

Is the VGT line hooked back up?

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sbohner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:38 am

Thanks for all of your help so far. This journey has had some twists. First, the ARP studs needed to be installed, but since it was the first time for the mechanic, we needed some extra time for getting some special tools. The rig starts and runs reasonably well without significant pushing the first time. The mechanic takes it out for the second time to push it a bit harder in the checkout, and the rig starts belching black smoke and no power. After some investigation, it is determined that there was no boost from turbo, so the MAP sensor was ordered and changed. This did not change the problem. Then after some more investigation, it was determined that the turbo was the problem (some play in turbo shaft), ordered and installed that only to find, problem still exists. Today, I got the call that the problem was found to be the exhaust and more specifically, the catalytic converter was clogged up to the point that the turbo was not able to operate. They want me to pick up the Jeep without the exhaust and a get it fixed otherwise. I'm a bit concerned that if I pick it up, it may become my problem. What do you you think?

Any ideas would be helpful here. Thanks!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:49 am

Is the mechanic saying that with with turbo downpipe and ALL exhaust pipes removed, the
Jeep runs great?
I understand that your mechanic may not be willing to cut out and weld in a new cat, but the
pipe could be sent off to an exhaust shop where they weld in a new cat and then the pipe
returned to the mechanic for installation and testing.
Better yet, have the exhaust shop weld in a pipe without the cat.
Or, just take the cat pipe home and ram a long rod or pipe into the cat and break up all the
material inside the cat. Dump all the broken pieces out and return to mechanic for installation
and testing.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:03 pm

Uh when I hear hoofbeats I think horses or zebras not geese or chickens or whales. Sorry for the bad metaphor or whatever but something is definitely not right here.

This all started with an ARP stud install. So the first thing one should think about is what can go wrong with an ARP stud install by a mechanic who has never done the job (I'd make an ITYS comment but that's bad form) and lacked the tools. Things that can go wrong during that install but not an exhaustive list:
1. when installing the rocker cover one or more rockers were knocked off
2. when installing the CAC hoses the end(s) were not properly tightened or a hose was damaged especially if OEM
3. FCV, intake elbow, EGR pipe not properly connected/gasketed
any of these would cause low/no boost and black smoke. Not to mention improper reconnection of various electric plugs and the injector hoses. NOTE while it would normally prevent starting at all did he swap the #4 injector electric plug and the fuel rail pressure valve plug?

I've asked but not seen an answer as to the amount of turbo shaft play so I have no clue if the play was enough to matter or impact boost. In any case turbo shaft play would not have caused boost to "die" immediately after ARP stud install. I strongly suspect you paid for a turbo that you may not have needed especially as replacement did nothing to solve the boost problem

Why the MAP sensor was replaced escapes me. Normal action is to clean it which takes all of 5 minutes and a bit of like carb cleaner spray.

See flash7210's exhaust system comments. I'd add to that YES they are trying to take your $s and send you on your way with a broken vehicle in hopes that it will become YOUR problem or at least the exhaust pipe shop's problem. Any shop that cannot sub out fixing a bad cat, assuming it's really plugged, is incompetent beyond description. Frankly I have no clue why a "plugged" cat would belch black smoke on a diesel, black smoke is a typical sign too much fuel/too little air.

My gut tells me they screwed up something during the ARP stud install and are now trying to dump the problem on you after throwing parts at a "solution" without trying to figure out what they messed up.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:41 pm

Black smoke=too much fuel for the air. papaI has it right.

This implies too little air, as unlike an old style injection pump you are very unlikely to get more fuel out of an electronic injection system.

Possible causes are:

Cracked, broken, or unmounted intercooler hoses;
Disconnected vane control line or bad VV controller;
Improperly installed or jammed FCV;
Broken or dismounted rockers;
clogged intercooler.

Given that it suddenly stopped running properly, then *I* would look at the hoses first, then the VV control tube, then the VV controller. If all that was OK, then I would think about other possibilities.

sbohner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:53 pm

Well, I picked up my CRD. No muffler - it was cut at the cat converter. Prognosis was that the cat converter is so clogged up that it prevented the turbo couldn't spool. The mechanic was patient and polite as I took it for a drive and listened to it for new sounds. It seems to spool quicker without the exhaust, but seems to make more "ticking" noises as it runs. It appears to be using antifreeze - I will check it after a few days. The mechanic recommended that I replace cat converter with a straight pipe - it would not clog up again. I'm a bit skeptical, though we do not have emission inspections in Indiana.

There is no real black exhaust beyond quick starts. It smells a lot more like diesel mixed with antifreeze, but I attribute it to the short pipe for the exhaust under the car and antifreeze overfill for now - though I did point out that there was antifreeze dripping from the front of the engine. The mechanic indicated the overflow was up there from the radiator. I also noted that the air conditioning no longer gets cold - he said that he didn't work on anything that would affect the air conditioning.

While I was feeling skeptical, I went ahead and paid for the work with an assurance from him that he would honor if there were any problems (he indicated that the turbo has a warranty and the honor their work). I think being an earnest customer and trying to work through any problems would be a better tact than demanding fixes to things that I am somewhat uncertain about now. It is a bit uncomfortable that I went in trying to prevent a major fix and walked away with an even more major fix - it would have been about $2000 for a new head gasket and with all that was done, I had paid almost $2700 for the new turbo, the ARP studs, a lift pump (I supplied to replace old one), a new sensor, and a whole lot of labor. I hope my reservations with this company are not realized - I will try not to borrow trouble.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your help. Wish me luck! :JEEPIN:

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:25 pm

You did not need a turbo.

Ticking sounds? This is a bad indicator of other potential problems, not any of them related to the turbo or the exhaust.

If the exhaust is 'belching black smoke' then where did this genius think that was coming from? It was coming THROUGH the catalytic, and they have now VIOLATED FEDERAL LAW in cutting your exhaust system apart and sending you on your way to deal with it yourself.

My first thoughts on the power loss are that there is a boost leak. Possibly from the EGR tube being loose, possibly at any other stage of the intake. There are many connections between the turbo and the intake, and you haven't said how far apart this genius took your engine. IF he followed the factory process to take apart the engine for the timing belt (which is required to install head studs) then YES, he DID drain your AC - if he didn't properly vacuum it out and recharge it correctly... Then there is your problem on the AC. You have an AC problem now, you didn't before. What's that sound? Hoofbeats? Hmm, he 'claims he didn't do anything with the AC' so it must be dinosaurs I'm hearing.

Coolant smell in the exhaust? Coolant on the front of the motor? Coolant "overflow" on the top of the radiator???? DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!! The exhaust should NEVER smell of coolant! There shouldn't be ANY coolant "used" or found ANYWHERE other than in the radiator bottle. What exactly were you having the studs installed for? Did you have a head gasket leak before? Did this genius use a proper torque wrench and do each bolt ONE AT A TIME? Did he have the ARP lube and actually USE it? These are critically important questions. Wrong answers can all lead to one final conclusion: Coolant leaking / head gasket failure / engine overheating and ENGINE DEATH. I do not have a warm fuzzy feeling right now.

Knocking the rockers off while screwing around with the top cover will make the engine run like crap at all speeds. I do not think that is a problem, HOWEVER, I am not ruling out improperly done timing. I think the biggest problem you have is a simple boost leak, and a CLUELESS mechanic who can't figure out what he screwed up and missed, so is hoping that you will just go away and he can keep your money.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:47 pm

Oh boy... Sounds like the mechanic took you and your wallet for a ride. This is why mechanics that do not understand CRD's have no business working on or servicing them. I 100% agree with geordi... This is not sounding good I am sorry to say...

hucorey · **Joined:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:29 am **Posts:** 378

Sorry to say but this has troll kinda written on it. Op has asked questions. Members give him answers. Op pretty much ignores all advice and does what mechanic says. Now op cries because of said bill from dealer. Obviously the mechanic has no idea what hes doing by throwing parts at it. The mechanic's not spending his money. I just don't get people. :evil:

I know it sucks to get that bill, but please listen to those others giving you advice, these guys really know their stuff with these CRD KJ's. And you what......its free.

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sbohner · **Posted:** Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:15 pm

I haven't ignored the advice; rather, I have employed it respond to a situation that was largely out of my hands. I even gave the mechanic the URL to LOST and links to some of the advice given to me. The mechanic did the "classic" fix one problem and encounter another, only to take the vehicle apart, then offer a solution of replacing the offending part. It appears that there may be some shot-gunning, but I am not ready to make that accusation. I asked questions, made decisions, and paid the price for those decisions. While I am not happy about the price, LOST has helped me immensely understand what the options were. I turned the knobs that I could. The place where I had this work done is a solid diesel shop, they just have little experience with CRDs. I think they now have more experience...

My inquiries here have gleaned valuable advice from people I have interacted with over the years. I never question the knowledge the LOST folks impart as they are very good at CRDs and earnest at helping. Your suggestion that I don't listen is not productive and based on the smell of your insinuations.... yep, smells like a troll. :wink:

Please keep this tread on topic or I will report you to the moderators. :JEEPIN:

hucorey wrote:

Sorry to say but this has troll kinda written on it. Op has asked questions. Members give him answers. Op pretty much ignores all advice and does what mechanic says. Now op cries because of said bill from dealer. Obviously the mechanic has no idea what hes doing by throwing parts at it. The mechanic's not spending his money. I just don't get people. :evil:

I know it sucks to get that bill, but please listen to those others giving you advice, these guys really know their stuff with these CRD KJ's. And you what......its free.

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geordi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:42 pm

Girls, you are BOTH pretty. Can we get back to the problem at hand now, un-forking this CRD?

Hexus · **Posted:** Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:05 pm

If you paid with a credit card, contest the charge due to incorrect repairs.

If you paid cash, take him to small claims court.

If you don't want to do either, shame on you.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:50 pm

Agree w Geordi, guys, let's stay focused on the problem at hand.
The financial aspects of this situation however unfortunate are not our business.

please permit me some questions:

1) coolant loss.
How much is lost?
Where is it coming from?
Are there signs of coolant in the oil?
Is there coolant in the driver's side of the coolant reservoir?

2) boost loss
Have you carefully checked the intercooler hoses?
Have you checked the intercooler itself for a leak or blockage?
Have you carefully inspected the VV control hose and controller?

3) noises
What sort of noise is it?
Is it rpm dependent or road speed dependent?
Does it happen all the time, or is it intermittent?

Answers to these questions would be helpful.

Had ARP studs installed and now no turbo boost...

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