Well crap.. Head Gasket?

Sky120 · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2014 7:03 pm

Had the low coolant warning come on last night. Checked the resivor and have a steady stream of bubbles going into it, CRAP. I have been searching like mad today and have found everything from bad head gasket to cracked heads to leaking egr cooler. It seems to start and run like normal. Is there any way to try and narrow it down before I call up idparts and drop $600 for a head install kit and a set of rockers(while i'm in there..). This is not how i planned on spending the long weekend. FWIW I do have the GDE eco tune so the EGR isnt even being used..

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2014 7:21 pm

How many miles on the CRD?

What has your maintenance been on the following:

1. Cooling system?
2. Oil change intervals?

What is the condition of the coolant, any sludge in it, and do you see foam in the oil?

Sky120 · **Posted:** Tue May 20, 2014 7:42 pm

136k miles

replaced the timing belt at 97k and replaced all coolant, currently its clear and looks normal
Oil changed every 4k with rotella T6, im up for the oil change now and its dark but no foam or milky color. what i see on every other oil change...

Sky120 · **Posted:** Wed May 21, 2014 1:35 pm

Is there any harm in connecting the coolant lines at the egr cooler to effectively bypass the cooler? I just find it hard to believe its running this good with a possible head gasket issue...

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flman · **Posted:** Wed May 21, 2014 4:37 pm

Before you start it tomorrow morning, open the hood, and squeeze the upper rad hose, if it is hard you may have a problem, open the rad cap, if it has a lot of pressure, you may have a HG leak. That is what mine did, and the only thing that could possibly pressurize the system and not be able to leak back is a HG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs

Sky120 · **Posted:** Wed May 21, 2014 4:59 pm

Thanks I will most definitely try that in the morning!

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Sky120 · **Posted:** Thu May 22, 2014 8:02 am

I tried that and got a very slight pssst of pressure but nothing like your video...

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DOC4444 · **Posted:** Thu May 22, 2014 9:07 am

Observed similar, but less dramatic version on ours. After pressure release, level rose by about 1/4" and stayed there. Video shows level rising much more and then dropping. Have a note in to Keith on this.

DOC

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Thu May 22, 2014 9:17 am

Keith replied that he was not sure about the meaning of pressure remaining in a cold motor, but stated that if there is coolant in the overflow side, that definitely suggests a HG problem.

DOC

flman · **Posted:** Thu May 22, 2014 8:06 pm

Sky120 wrote:

I tried that and got a very slight pssst of pressure but nothing like your video...

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I think mine had a bad HG for quite a while, as we were adding antifreeze for quite a while and I had a problem maintaining heat in the cab. At 136K, I would not be at all surprised if you did have a HG leak. All I did was check the head for warpage, and it was minor, put in a new gasket and bolted it back together.

I think it is almost a given with this engine in many applications?

BTW, if your rad cap is old, it may leak off some pressure over night, mine had a new cap on it at the time I shot the video.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2014 2:31 pm

We have coolant in the overflow side when cold. Will try a new pressure at cap, but will be contacting Geordi.

DOC

geordi · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2014 4:11 pm

I sent most of this to Doc, but this could be useful for anyone else looking and suspecting their head gasket. Are you certain that it needs the head gasket? I'm of the 'hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras' thought process, so it is worth checking the cheap stuff first.

Are you losing coolant / having to add it / getting low coolant warnings?

Some heat expansion into the overflow section on a fully-topped system is normal, continuing to lose coolant into that section isn't. IF the cap is functioning properly and has a properly-fitting gasket (I've seen problems with both those statements) then when the engine cools, the fluid SHOULD be drawn back into the radiator. A little may hang out permanently with no ill effect.

As the air heats up, the heat expansion can accelerate, but you should not have a continuous loss of coolant under any circumstances. I would suggest replacing the cap first (no matter if you think it is functioning or not - its like $7) and see if the level changes. A piece of tape on the outside of the bottle can help indicate exactly where the coolant level is / was, so you can track it over a couple drive cycles.

Another possible test to confirm or deny a HG problem is the exhaust gas test, but I can't remember the specifics on that right now. Changing the cap is the simplest and cheapest - and that usually also points to the initial failure point. Cheap parts equal cheaply made too.

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DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri May 23, 2014 10:42 pm

You put a CO test probe into the bottle just above the coolant. If it picks up CO, you have a HG lsak.

DOC

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:49 pm

Well, we tried a Snap-On, fluid-type exhaust gas tester (with diesel fluid) and it did NOT show signs of exhaust being present in the coolant at up to 2000 rpm with no load. However, after towing a 3000 lb trailer for an hour, it blew out enough coolant to fill the overflow. The temp gauge never budged from one tick left of vertical.

The rad cap is new and has been tested to hold 17 PSI. I do not see what could be causing the cooling system pressure to exceed the capacity of the pressure cap other than if combustion gasses are entering the coolant.

The most likely cause is head bolts that are no longer tightened properly, but a cracked head or block could also allow this to happen.

Keith (GDE) told me that a leaking EGR can, at very high rpm, possibly cause this, but since we rarely exceed 2200 rpm, it seems unlikely.

Unless, someone can come up with a reason not to, I plan to go ahead with HG replacement with ARP studs.

Would appreciate any thoughts.

DOC

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:23 pm

Your head gasket is leaking. Exact same symptoms as mine. Would only leak under load such as on the highway or towing. My inner head bolts took noticeably less force to break free. Machine shop manager identified right away on the head where it was leaking when I took it in.

I put in ARP studs. I have not had a chance to completely reassemble yet. Timing belt is next.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:38 pm

Well, Doc's CRD will be getting a new HG next week. Hopefully the problem child makes itself known during the repair, so that we can KNOW that his CRD is back to fully functional again.

More to come later.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:51 pm

Wolverine,

Did the machine shop check the head for flatness? If so, what exactly did they find?

DOC

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:06 am

No exact numbers, but I asked him to check it. Said it was fine and cleaned it up. Also had him install new valve seals and clean up the valve cover.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:24 am

Yeah, there won't be a really good way to validate Doc's head for flatness either, the current plan is to just lift it a couple inches to get the failed gasket out of the way and replaced. Look at it with a bore scope to just validate the appearance of the cylinders, and drop everything back down. Pulling the turbo and the exhaust manifold is a pain if we can avoid it, and it adds 3 hours to the job - IF none of the turbo studs break.

Don't ask Papaindigo about that, those studs might be a bit of a sore spot still.

As long as the engine hasn't been overheated, I contend that the head will be as flat as it left the factory... And I blame the bolts and their looseness for this problem. It is entirely possible that simply swapping to studs would solve the leak, but the amount of work isn't worth half-arsing it if you aren't able to tear it down yourself... Or are a masochist.

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flman · **Posted:** Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:57 am

geordi wrote:

Yeah, there won't be a really good way to validate Doc's head for flatness either, the current plan is to just lift it a couple inches to get the failed gasket out of the way and replaced. Look at it with a bore scope to just validate the appearance of the cylinders, and drop everything back down. Pulling the turbo and the exhaust manifold is a pain if we can avoid it, and it adds 3 hours to the job - IF none of the turbo studs break.

Don't ask Papaindigo about that, those studs might be a bit of a sore spot still.

As long as the engine hasn't been overheated, I contend that the head will be as flat as it left the factory... And I blame the bolts and their looseness for this problem. It is entirely possible that simply swapping to studs would solve the leak, but the amount of work isn't worth half-arsing it if you aren't able to tear it down yourself... Or are a masochist.

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I pulled my manifold with the turbo in place, just loosen the exhaust, took out the 7 nuts, and pushed it aside to remove the head. You might want to remove the head to clean the surfaces as well. Mine needed to be cleaned.

Well crap.. Head Gasket?

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