My 250+HP CRD build

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:27 pm

geordi wrote:

Serious question for the people that could know far more than I do about adding power and engine upgrades...

Why would an engine at stock power have lost the bottom end and started tapping, before putting the rod end (minus the cap) through the side of the block? I've never been able to figure out why that would have happened, and answering that would be the first step to preventing it in the future.

Engine #1 failed the entire #1 cylinder, I believe because of a blown turbo and I didn't know what was happening at the time. But #2... It was summer, oil was clean and fresh 5w-40 synth, normal operations, no excessive power, GDE eco tune. Thoughts?

Please ask or throw any theories out there, and I'd be happy to fill in the answers. I don't want this to happen to anyone else, and I can't explain it. If I ever get another CRD, I sure as hell don't want it happening to me either!

Just a thought: on engine No.2, did you break a valve off? As an old car mechanic, I rebuilt a many VW engines that had dropped a valve (#3 was notorious for it) and it busted through the top of the cast piston and got caught between the crankshaft and the block and all hell broke loose. Destroyed the whole engine...broke rod, hole in block, trashed head...

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:33 pm

Both questions are good ones.

Engine #1 melted the #1 main bearings after the turbo failed and blew all the oil into the exhaust. Extremely cold morning, not plugged in, I strongly suspect oil starvation b/c bearing #2 was mostly gone into "leaves" sticking out the sides of where it should have been mounted, #3 was thin and #4 was the only one that looked "normal" for a flat bearing. Factor in that I have no real idea what these bearings are supposed to look like, but the absence of one and differences in the others suggests the problem. #1 piston broke to shrapnel including the cylinder sleeve, broken off rod end beat the s#it out of everything in the front, inverted and punched out the oil pan, ejecting all the debris. The rod cap bolts - one was completely missing, the other was backed halfway out and bent with the rod cap still partly captured on it and the crankshaft.

Engine #2 was purchased with 60k miles on it, failed at 132k miles. #4 rod through the side of the block. I disassembled that engine 4 times after it started tapping - no valves were missing, no rockers were collapsed, all top end components and piston tops were in perfect condition. This I have compared against the other engines that I have seen the tops of - no difference. The #2 engine failure started and existed entirely below the pistons. I never pulled the oil pan on that engine. It is currently sitting with the new owner, waiting to be disassembled and potentially rebuilt.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:17 am

Geordi, how often did you tow and at what rpm? What oils did you use on each engine? Have you ever used regular mineral oil? What temperature was outside and what temp were the engines when they went south? On the 2nd engine, did you have the sound when you got it, or it developed later? Was the sound more audible at cold? Looking at the oil feed line for the turbo, this is pretty narrow, and on very cold temperature, I wonder what is the flow through that small pipe... on the 300SD I have, the oil feed line is double the size of the crd, and the engine size and turbos are about the same (and this is why I am for a thin oil at cold, like Mobil1 0w40 or 5w30 extend performance for very cold - I am really concerned about the fluidity through that small pipe of a 5w40 diesel oil on subzero temps)

Maybe we should make another thread to leave Joe's thread dedicated to the build, even though there may be some common denominators in between his build and the cause of your engines failure... Definitely you (Geordi) having this bad luck with 2 crd engines, and from what I know, no bad luck with another engine, tells something fishy or a huge matter of bad luck...

mass-hole · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:19 am

diesel_guy86 wrote:

I'm knocking on the door to 30psi, I think I'll be just in it with the next turbo, I really don't see the need to go much past there. I'm afraid at that point I'll be heating the air more than I am compressing it, plus can forget about the plastic end-tanked intercooler that cracks on stock boost. If you've had the head off and really looked at it, its not a very "efficient" design. See those runners on top of the valve cover/ cam holder? Those channel air to one of the two intake valves. So one valve has a nice short port to the air supply, while the other has a long-a** hallway it has to go through before it gets to the other valve. Air travels the path of least resistance so more air is gonna try to take the short route, leaving the excess to go around. I think this is what seriously limits the flow on these heads. Im guessing that 300-325hp would be the max this engine could put out and still be somewhat "safe" . I think after that you'd be spending a huge amount of money on machine work just trying to keep it together. 250hp in a liberty is plenty, the same year these were built the duramax's and Cummins' were only making 300-320hp, out of 5.9 and 6.6L respectively.
I still *MAY* do a performance grind on the cams to help it breathe a lil bit, but after that any more machining to wring out more power will cost more than its worth, in my opinion.
Hell I'm happy that I was able to ditch the factory turbo!
Geordi, did the bearing wipe out on #1? And #2, is that the one bought used?

The Subaru Legacy's and possibly the WRX had a similar issue with the OEM intercoolers blowing off before even the stock turbo ran out of juice(~19-20psi). A guy made a kit with some fairly basic hardware that clamped the two end caps down to hold them in place and it was very successful. It was kind of a waste of time because the stock intercooler wasn't very good but it did work.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:27 am

thermorex wrote:

Geordi, how often did you tow and at what rpm? What oils did you use on each engine? Have you ever used regular mineral oil? What temperature was outside and what temp were the engines when they went south? On the 2nd engine, did you have the sound when you got it, or it developed later? Was the sound more audible at cold? Looking at the oil feed line for the turbo, this is pretty narrow, and on very cold temperature, I wonder what is the flow through that small pipe... on the 300SD I have, the oil feed line is double the size of the crd, and the engine size and turbos are about the same (and this is why I am for a thin oil at cold, like Mobil1 0w40 or 5w30 extend performance for very cold - I am really concerned about the fluidity through that small pipe of a 5w40 diesel oil on subzero temps)

Maybe we should make another thread to leave Joe's thread dedicated to the build, even though there may be some common denominators in between his build and the cause of your engines failure... Definitely you (Geordi) having this bad luck with 2 crd engines, and from what I know, no bad luck with another engine, tells something fishy or a huge matter of bad luck...

I think it may help his build-up if he can discover anything that I may have missed - certainly wouldn't be the worst idea to pull the oil pan if possible and check the tightness of the rod bolts.

On your questions:
how often did you tow and at what rpm? Towing was maybe 1-2% of total mileage on the vehicle, I would still use the OD gears but take my time in acceleration and braking - There was no towing within 2k miles of the failure of #2.
What oils did you use on each engine? Mobil 1 5w40 TDT or Rotella T6 5w40. Always synthetic, I consider these oils equivalent.
Have you ever used regular mineral oil? The only time was on engine #1 right after replacing the turbo - that oil ended up on the pavement during the 10 mile test drive.
What temperature was outside and what temp were the engines when they went south? For engine #1, when the turbo failed it had been below 20 overnight and was only 32 when I started the engine. No time to warm up, not plugged in, and my driveway ends in a 50mph road - not good. The turbo failed less than 2 miles down the road. Towed back to my house, replaced turbo, the engine failed about 10 miles later on the test drive after idling in the driveway for 15 minutes. It started with a light tapping, but that went away... And came back as a loud banging just before the total failure. Engine #2 failed in the dead of summer, 90+ temps. Neither engine ever overheated, the temp gauge might have been painted at dead center, even when towing.
On the 2nd engine, did you have the sound when you got it, or it developed later? The tapping started after an italian tune up and typical overboost code because the boost climbed slowly to 27psi, just ticking the cut-off point for the code and limp mode. When I rebooted the computer, the tapping started. Engine was fully warmed up, drove it very gently another 20 miles to get it back home, about 5-10 minutes of idling over the course of 4 teardowns while still tapping until eventual failure.
Was the sound more audible at cold? Didn't seem to be, actually may have been a little quieter when cold, but that is subjective at this point. Any tapping is bad news.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:42 pm

geordi wrote:

On your questions:
...

Hmmm, I can see the turbo failing first time because some potential lack of lubrication due to very cold tmperatures, which would be still kind of stupid since some oil should be still going through, but an italian tuneup to weaken up the engine, that's odd. Unless you italian tuned it up for 4 hours straight, lol.

I was trying to establish a pattern, to see if there was an obvious to me reason of those failures. Thanks for answering! The only logical reason could be an oil delivery problem, which normally you should see on the pressure gauge. Or the needle holes got clogged somehow...

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:57 pm

Same cylinder both times? I think I may pop the hoses off, un bolt the mounts to raise the engine up and see if I can pop the pan off. I'll get a good look at the bottom end as well as check for any aluminum flakes in the pan.
The plastic end tanks aren't blowing apart, there just cracking from not being designed strong enough. Some good cast end tanks welded on would solve the problem. The more I think about that the more worried I'm getting about running 30 pounds of boost.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:04 pm

diesel_guy86 wrote:

Same cylinder both times? I think I may pop the hoses off, un bolt the mounts to raise the engine up and see if I can pop the pan off. I'll get a good look at the bottom end as well as check for any aluminum flakes in the pan.
The plastic end tanks aren't blowing apart, there just cracking from not being designed strong enough. Some good cast end tanks welded on would solve the problem. The more I think about that the more worried I'm getting about running 30 pounds of boost.

Lol, better safe than sorry, costs less to check/upgrade than buying another engine. Thinking you see the overboost cel (OEM settings) at about 25-ish, I would go ahead and see what can be done to ensure a safe 30PSI boost. Maybe Keith has some ideas...

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:13 pm

Cylinder #1 failed on the first engine, cylinder #4 failed on the second engine. Tapping preceded both failures, for all the information that provides. The only source of the tapping that I can think of is the bearing having wasted away, and the rod end being "loose" on the crank and tapping as it came around.

I had a wild thought as I was dozing this morning before being fully awake - What if there were a way to have ball bearings instead of these flat leaves of copper? I really don't understand how these things protect the engine except for the oil flow, so the only other thought is if there was some way to add even more pressure to the oil system.

The oil pan has a hex plug on the front end. From what I understand, that should be a full-pressure port. I guess that is supposed to be for a bypass filter or centrifuge, I don't know. BUT, it seems that if there were a way to add a pump to the oil system, that could be a location. I never liked it that the main gallery was only reading 18psi at idle on a hot engine and over 80-100 (gauge limitation) on a cold engine. Hot engine at cruise / highway speed wasn't even that high, only about 25-30 or so.

What do you think, does it need more oil pressure?

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:52 pm

My personal take is that the flow creates lubrication not pressure, even though there is no flow without some sort of pressure after a while... This is why I believe a thinner oil would help in cold winters. So, a thinner oil would, at least in theory, create more flow, which creates more lubrication and cooling, considering the oil pump doesn't change.

Btw, my 4.0 Cherokee has about 12 psi when the engine is hot, I'm guessing the oil temp is around 240 water temp gauge is at 205-ish), since those engines run hot, and it's been like that for over 50k miles, and the engine runs like new... Normally it's 15-20psi when oil is at 210. 18 psi hot for crd ain't bad, and it's maybe about the same as Cherokee if we would use a 30 weight oil

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:10 pm

I feel I have a "one up" by using the ball bearing turbos. They require very little oil. I'm running a .040" restrictor in the feed line now, owner of KPA turbos I can run as small as .011", but at that small just a few flakes or specs can plug the hole. Since so little quantity of oil is needed for the turbo, there's excess to be pushed up to the #2 and 1 cylinder. I'm guessing that since the oil filter is at the back of the engine that the oil travels from the rear to the front of the engine, leaving the 1 and 2 cylinder a lil desperate for oil. Not to mention all the oil needed to lift 16 lifters, as well as float 2 camshafts. I still say these engines need pressure, not flow, and 0w40 just seems too thin to do the job.

Geordi, was anything transferred from the old engine to the new?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:19 pm

Only external components, accessories and the like. Timing belt and lifters were all new. These lifters shouldn't require much oil to pump up, they are fairly small and stay filled when not being compressed by the cam.

I would agree about the flow from back to front, but I don't think that has anything to do with the filter location. It is just how this engine is set up.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:30 pm

Follow the oil passages on the block, you'll see where they go and where they come from, I don't remember on the top of the head . combined with oil pump location should give a fair "feel" about what's going on with oil flow.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:50 pm

If you can follow the arrows in this image it shows the direction(s) of oil flow

Having problems posting large enough image to view using ImageShack. They have redone things and I am at least temporarily lost in their redo. Let me see if I can shoot a copy to someone who can upload.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:57 pm

papaindigo wrote:

If you can follow the arrows in this image it shows the direction(s) of oil flow

Jim, I think you attached an image that for some reason won't resize in bigger.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

papaindigo wrote:

If you can follow the arrows in this image it shows the direction(s) of oil flow
[img]<a%20target="_blank"%20href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/r649h.jpg/"><img%20src="http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/819/r649h.jpg"%20border="0"></a>[/img]

LMFTFY

dkenny · **Posted:** Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:55 pm

for cummins..without mods...
sorry think north 600hp easy..sorry my dad motorhome is 300hp stock..for a 5.9 24v
I applaoud your efforts..it highlights what's possible..

too bad dodge/jeep have the same history..de tune the engine to keep the drive train ( tranny, shaft, diff's) together..
sorry just look at why the 5.9 is 215 hp in a dodge but 300 hp with an Allison tranny..???
build the 47re tranny right..think 600-700hp..1400Ft/lbs torque?? gee not the way Dodge built it..
and thats easy.. 1000hp take work but possible..
I'm just not happy with the comparision in some respects. not against the effort..keep it up..

so how does it runs?

it would be nice to smaller high HP diesels in the US market..for high MPG..why don't we have 60 MPG diesels??

-dkenny

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:57 am

Just curious here, can the balance shaft assembly be removed without changing anything else? I know the motor will be slightly rougher, I've just never been a fan of hunks of metal shaking back and forth violently to counter act other chunks of metal spinning around. Other 4 bangers don't have them and run for hundreds of thousands of miles eg Cummins 4bt and Isuzu 4 cylinders. Its common practice to remove the shafts out of the 90's eagle talons to pick up extra HP.

We did have 60mpg diesels, back in the 80s vw rabbits got 55-60 mpg.
We can send a man to the moon on a rocket with the same computing power as a staples calculator, but we can't make a 60mpg vehicle? Cmon think about it, its bad biz for oil companies.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:53 am

When I pulled apart the #1 engine failure, the balance shaft assembly was bolted to the bottom of the engine between cylinders 2 and 3. You'd have to drop the pan to be able to do it - and I think the assembly is the main thing getting in the way of getting the pan OUT in the first place. That would also be a great time to check the factory torque on the rod bolts. I'd be interested to know if they weren't all massively tight as I think they should be. Heck, for such an important and inaccessible location, I'd be willing to drill a tiny hole straight through the rod AND the bolt, so they could be locked down with a little piece of wire - like a tiny cotter pin almost. Anything worth engineering is worth OVER engineering.

If you are really feeling froggy, saw off the bottom of the oil pan with a sawzall and get the assembly out that way - then pull the pan and have it TIG welded back together. It doesn't hold any pressure, and as long as you only cut the very bottom off as one piece... There shouldn't be anything in the way to cut.

Better yet - ignore me, because I'm insane. :dizzy:

NotPicky · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:53 am

Ya I agree. Had a 99 VW Jetta 1.9 TDI 5 speed got 53 mpg hwy. Sold it bought the exact same car just a 05 model Jetta TDI had 10 more hp only got 47 mpg hwy same commute. Not sure what exactly the difference was but the 99 would pull hard all the way to red line but the 05 would die off hard about 1000 rpms sooner. Could of been emissions tuning in the 05 but who knows but I know no 2 exact same engines run alike aswell.

My 250+HP CRD build

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