High mileage CRD and zero problems

tomasnc · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:03 pm

I spotted a CRD here in NC and ran him down to ask him about his car, etc.

My first question was mileage... 215,000 and zero issues.
He changes oil every 5,000 using straight Rotella, no synthetic. Timing belt and dealership every 100,000.
No rocker arms, t-stat or MAF.

I have owned two CRD's and had multiple problems. My current one is rockers....

While this mans has had perfect results, FYI I change my oil every 10,000 miles.

Thanks for your time

Tom

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:01 pm

I would take it with a grain of salt, most CRDs are blowing head gaskets around the 100K+ mark? :roll:

dgeist · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:09 pm

flman wrote:

I would take it with a grain of salt, most CRDs are blowing head gaskets around the 100K+ mark? :roll:

Even if every member on this forum with over 100k had a blown head (and it's not anywhere near that), there still wouldn't be enough sampling to make that blanket statement. The problem with car-heads is that we tend to find things where others don't, and sometimes make the problems for ourselves

Dan

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:03 pm

dgeist wrote:

flman wrote:

I would take it with a grain of salt, most CRDs are blowing head gaskets around the 100K+ mark? :roll:

Even if every member on this forum with over 100k had a blown head (and it's not anywhere near that), there still wouldn't be enough sampling to make that blanket statement. The problem with car-heads is that we tend to find things where others don't, and sometimes make the problems for ourselves

Dan

Dan, I totally agree, I am at 144k with OEM head gaskets and no problems even with running the high performance +4 Yeti tune and temperatures we experience here in central GA. I do not think you can make a blanket statement as it does not apply to all CRD's... :ROTFL:

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:49 pm

Fix it until broke...

At the same time, he isn't using an oil that is too thin for good protection. I don't like his choice of oil, but he is changing it often enough that it may not make much difference in performance between synth and std. It is possible that his dealership might somehow not be completely clueless (I know, how can that be?)

I would suggest against a 10k mile oil change interval however. This engine puts out too much soot for that long of a change, I would think.

jthomas999 · **Joined:** Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:51 pm **Posts:** 98

FWIW, I was doing 12,500 mile oil changes until I broke 2 valves at 261,000. Mostly Amsoil, but some Mobil One 5w 40 turbo diesel truck.

My concern with conventional motor oil is I think it is more likely to coke the bearings from heat.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:00 am

dgeist wrote:

flman wrote:

I would take it with a grain of salt, most CRDs are blowing head gaskets around the 100K+ mark? :roll:

Even if every member on this forum with over 100k had a blown head (and it's not anywhere near that), there still wouldn't be enough sampling to make that blanket statement. The problem with car-heads is that we tend to find things where others don't, and sometimes make the problems for ourselves

Dan

Well, I told you guys to stop following the Noob guide. :SOMBRERO:

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:03 am

I hope I get a good long run over 200,000 miles trouble free. that would give me another 7-8 years at the current rate I put on miles.

I have 96,000 now and had my 100,000 miles service done at a local dealer that has a clue. I change my own Oil at jeeps severe service interval 6,250 miles with Rotella T6 5W40, have GDE eco tune and a provent 200 to keep oil out of the intake. I don't plan on more mods to the engine as its been running fine and even better since the timing belt change. Other than the thermostat, a serpentine belt tension-er and other normal wear items the only things that have been reoccurring issues for me have been batteries and alternators.

I woulnt trust plain Rotella oil myself and oil tests show I can go to 8000 mile oil changes but I don't because I dont feel it would save me a lot of money and i like keeping the oil clean. I was one that changed the oil in gas cars every 3000 mile like it was a religious obligation. I cant say why others are having troubles or what but no engine issues here and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing until something happens to change my mind.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:53 am

The guy was probably trolling. He knew you would come on here and make these outrageous claims of no issues in 200+k miles and everyone would freak out. Now he is just watching and laughing

dgeist · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:15 am

mass-hole wrote:

The guy was probably trolling. He knew you would come on here and make these outrageous claims of no issues in 200+k miles and everyone would freak out. Now he is just watching and laughing

OR: the conversation is perfectly legit, things are operating reliably for that guy, and this is just an interesting conversation about reliability and the impact of social network to perceptions....

I vote #2. :wink:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:41 am

I'm at 140k miles with no engine problems.
Heck, I'm still using the original CAC hoses and alternator pulley

TXriverrat · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:54 am

dgeist wrote:

flman wrote:

I would take it with a grain of salt, most CRDs are blowing head gaskets around the 100K+ mark? :roll:

Even if every member on this forum with over 100k had a blown head (and it's not anywhere near that), there still wouldn't be enough sampling to make that blanket statement. The problem with car-heads is that we tend to find things where others don't, and sometimes make the problems for ourselves

Dan

Well from my experience I agree with flman.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:22 pm

Based on my observations of the head bolt torque on UNTOUCHED engines at various mileages... I would tend to agree with FLman too.

I would add the corollary that if your engine hasn't blown a head gasket YET, then I would strongly suggest planning ahead to installing ARP studs at some time sooner rather than later.

I cannot in good conscience suggest that anyone continue to use the head bolts, based on the observations that the factory torque between cylinders 2 and 3 are massively different (and less) from the bolts around them. This is from the factory and I am about 75% certain that this is why people are losing head gaskets in an otherwise functional and not-abused CRD. This is not a design flaw, this is a manufacturing flaw. I do not have direct quantified numbers from each CRD to point to other than Doc4444's CRD, but I have experienced the same differences (that Doc and I measured on his) in about 7 different CRD motors. Each one that I have worked under the valve cover, has been like this.

I have seen and can describe other manufacturing differences between the CRDs that I have worked on. Those can all be explained as differences in vehicle treatment or build quality, etc. Under the valve cover however... Even within the same ENGINE the bolts should all be identical, if not across multiple engines. What is identical is the problem. Cylinder 2/3 cylinder bolts have different torque than the rest of the cylinder bolts or perimeter bolts, within the same engine. This should not be.

Tiarnon · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:39 pm

Can you tighten the 2 & 3 (or all) cylinder head bolts down to proper ft-lb spec before there is an issue to potentially alleviate the head gasket issue? Are the head bolts TTY?

Could coolant play a part at all? As in, not replacing the coolant at a proper interval and it losing its corrosion protection?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:08 pm

Another member tried tightening the factory bolts to the 130lb-ft that we have determined as the torque for the head studs. At least one of those bolts snapped in the hole, but luckily enough he was able to extract it without any major pains.

Meanwhile, I had tightened one of the same bolts in a jig and got up to 250lb-ft before the flutes on the top of the bolt gave way. The shaft never yielded or broke. These are supposed to be TTY bolts, and I personally despise TTY because of the inconsistencies in how they yield like this. As such, all I can say is that you are on your own with the factory bolts. I compared the factory bolts removed from Doc's engine with the brand-new factory bolts with his head gasket... No differences could be detected, but that doesn't mean that the factory bolts are good, as cylinder 2/3 were loose.

However, what I know for fact: ARP studs are VERY precisely made, so that they all perform the same time after time. This is why I will only recommend these for the head clamping on the CRD or any other application that you can use them.

Coolant shouldn't have anything to do with it, honestly. This is an ELC coolant and should last longer than just 100k in personal car service.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:28 pm

jthomas999 wrote:

FWIW, I was doing 12,500 mile oil changes until I broke 2 valves at 261,000. Mostly Amsoil, but some Mobil One 5w 40 turbo diesel truck.

My concern with conventional motor oil is I think it is more likely to coke the bearings from heat.

A few months ago I sold my father '01 SD with the 7.3 and it had 707,000 miles,original engine and trans(auto).15w-40 dino Cenex CO OP oil changed every 5k.No mods besides a 5" straight pipe from turbo back,no tuner and all other OEM functions left 100% intact.Always had at least 15,000lbs hooked up to the goose neck ball and mainly cruised at 80mph+.Now his Volvo truck only made it 263k before it needed a complete rebuild and new heads.He bought it that way for dirt cheap($5k for 3 year old truck),$12k rebuild and that was caused by 50k amsoil OCI's from the original owner.

Change the darn oil more then once a year because your cheap and dino oil is no different then synthetic and can actually be better then synthetic in some drivetrain components like Diffs.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:46 pm

geordi wrote:

.....based on the observations that the factory torque between cylinders 2 and 3 are massively different (and less) from the bolts around them. This is from the factory and I am about 75% certain that this is why people are losing head gaskets in an otherwise functional and not-abused CRD. This is not a design flaw, this is a manufacturing flaw.

Not necessarily. Bolts can loosen when they are used in dynamic environments such as vibration, shock or thermal cycling - this is a design flaw. The correct installation spec may not have been provided - this is a design flaw. If you're correct and it is a manufacturing issue we can only hope that it's limited to a batch of engines.

camo · **Posted:** Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:25 am

dgeist wrote:

mass-hole wrote:

The guy was probably trolling. He knew you would come on here and make these outrageous claims of no issues in 200+k miles and everyone would freak out. Now he is just watching and laughing

OR: the conversation is perfectly legit, things are operating reliably for that guy, and this is just an interesting conversation about reliability and the impact of social network to perceptions....

I vote #2. :wink:

I vote #2 also. I have not had major issues in four years of ownership.
:JEEPIN:

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:26 am

dirtmover wrote:

geordi wrote:

.....based on the observations that the factory torque between cylinders 2 and 3 are massively different (and less) from the bolts around them. This is from the factory and I am about 75% certain that this is why people are losing head gaskets in an otherwise functional and not-abused CRD. This is not a design flaw, this is a manufacturing flaw.

Not necessarily. Bolts can loosen when they are used in dynamic environments such as vibration, shock or thermal cycling - this is a design flaw. The correct installation spec may not have been provided - this is a design flaw. If you're correct and it is a manufacturing issue we can only hope that it's limited to a batch of engines.

Wouldn't you think the bolt torque would be the same for any directly bordering a cylinder? That is how they are supposed to be according to the book process. If the dynamic environment (which I admit could certainly be a factor) was the main cause, why would it only be the ones in the middle that I have found loose? Why not between #2 and #1? Or #3 and #4? This is something I cannot explain. This is also the first design I've ever heard about that has an issue like this. Design or manufacturing flaw, either way, it is something that should have been found in quality testing before general sale of the model.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:42 am

geordi wrote:

dirtmover wrote:

geordi wrote:

.....based on the observations that the factory torque between cylinders 2 and 3 are massively different (and less) from the bolts around them. This is from the factory and I am about 75% certain that this is why people are losing head gaskets in an otherwise functional and not-abused CRD. This is not a design flaw, this is a manufacturing flaw.

Not necessarily. Bolts can loosen when they are used in dynamic environments such as vibration, shock or thermal cycling - this is a design flaw. The correct installation spec may not have been provided - this is a design flaw. If you're correct and it is a manufacturing issue we can only hope that it's limited to a batch of engines.

Wouldn't you think the bolt torque would be the same for any directly bordering a cylinder? That is how they are supposed to be according to the book process. If the dynamic environment (which I admit could certainly be a factor) was the main cause, why would it only be the ones in the middle that I have found loose? Why not between #2 and #1? Or #3 and #4? This is something I cannot explain. This is also the first design I've ever heard about that has an issue like this. Design or manufacturing flaw, either way, it is something that should have been found in quality testing before general sale of the model.

You are going to get stochastic variation on installed bolt torques. Good manufacturing practice is to select procedures that guarantee minimum clamping force on all bolts without exceeding maximum clamping force on any bolt. If VMM had used hardened and ground washers under the bolts, for example, they would have eliminated the galling and friction between the head and the bolt head that is one source of torque variation. They also would have reduced the deformation of the head bolt recesses that Geordi and I and others have seen. Some engines are undoubtedly going to get 16 good head bolt installs, perhaps the majority of them. But others won't, as has repeatedly been demonstrated. It is a crap shoot, due to the unpredictable nature of the bolts selected.

the really nice thing about the ARP studs is that you get predictable, reliable clamping force EVERY TIME from EVERY STUD. I am convinced that this modification is one of the two most important mods one can make to ensure proper engine function, right up there with dealing with the soot problem.

High mileage CRD and zero problems

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