URGENT:Leaking HG; Anybody Just Install ARPs without new HG?

RockyMountainYote · **Joined:** Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:32 pm **Posts:** 77

WWDiesel wrote:

Doc, If the head gasket is already leaking, it may already have a flow path worn into the gasket. I would not take the gamble that the new studs alone would stop the leaking. I would replace the gasket along with the new studs. It would give you piece of mind!!! :2cents:

WW

This.

Napheus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:39 pm **Posts:** 57

LMWatBullRun wrote:

To answer the original question, I was one of the first people to install ARP studs, and I decided to do so without replacing the HG. So far, with about 12 k miles since, no more coolant leaks.

I already posted in the ARP head studs thread I was going to do studs. I may have missed it in the 14 pages of the other thread, but how bad was your leak and did the steel head gasket sway you toward studs only without head gasket replacement? I'm thinking I'm having similar issues to what prompted you replacing your bolts with studs.

Napheus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:39 pm **Posts:** 57

DOC4444 wrote:

We replaced the HG. It showed signs of blueing on the passenger side of #3 cylinder, right where the head bolt breakaway torque was only 85/90 lbs ft. On the other side of that cylinder, it took 130/135 lbs ft to crack it free. This appears to be where the combustion gasses were leaking and pressurizing the cooling system.

Thanks to everyone for their input, as always,

DOC

It galls me to have to spend $130 on a new head gasket with bolts I will never use, just so I can get the gasket. I'm not questioning the decisions of anyone with regard to their gaskets. Some had no choice in the matter. Ultimately I have to live with whatever decision I make as well. This is where I'm curious if just replacing the bolts with studs and proper torque would be perfectly adequate in this situation. Here is my thought process.

I work with boilers and the gaskets used get replaced during repairs as well due to heat, pressure, etc. Even though they are all metal they are more of a laminate, one time sort of crush to fit application much like a typical composite head gasket. If you have ever seen a cut flange from a failed gasket and the resulting steam leak you will know what a huge undertaking it is to repair/replace the sealing surfaces.

I have not seen one in person, and I can only see the edges of the one currently on my Jeep. It is my understanding this is a stamped steel gasket that does not compress like a composite gasket does. Both types function as a gasket and a spacer based on assembly tolerances. Does bluing compromise the sealing ability of the gasket? Or just an unsightly/peace of mind thing justifying replacing the gasket? Did the gasket have any discernible damage/marks other than bluing? It shows something was leaking past the gasket at that point obviously. A 50 ft. lbs. swing in torque is a pretty large variable afterall.

Conventional wisdom for the most part says we replace gaskets whenever we remove/repair/replace something. Obviously if something is stated as being reusable that is excluded, but some folks have been conditioned to always replace no matter what. Suppose I lift the head and pull the gasket, and there was nothing to distinguish failure/damage, looks identical to a new one except it had some miles on it. As long as it is not damaged or made of some sort of composite manufacture intended to crush for sealing, why couldn't it be reused? Is replacing this type of head gasket when there is nothing actually wrong with it simply additional conditioning as stated previously?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:01 pm

This is not a composite gasket. It is about 5 layers of stamped steel, held together by stamped grommets on the tabs that protrude. The "leaves" (my word) of the gasket would quite readily separate from themselves without those grommets holding them together.

Whether anything crushes / deforms under head clamping, I do not know.

Reading your other thread, my answer is this: If you aren't having a loss of coolant more often than once per year, it is entirely plausible that you have not had a significant leak, and can forego the gasket at this time, in favor of just installing the studs. Please do two things however:

1: Understand that there is always the chance that you will be back in there to do the gasket if the leak reappears.

2: Measure the breaking force for each bolt, and report back to us to add to the collective knowledge of this job on these engines.

Measuring the force is fairly simple: Using your large click torque wrench (I use the $80 30 inch one from Home Depot - it clicks in both directions) set the torque to 80 lb-ft, and attempt to crack the bolt. If the wrench clicks (it should) increase the setting to 85, and try again. At the point that the bolt releases and the wrench does NOT click - that is the release torque. I made a chart of the bolt numbers according to the book's tightening sequence (I usually clean the head and write the numbers in sharpie directly on the head next to the bolt hole) and record the torque on that chart so that it can be shared with the board.

The critical ones to watch for are directly bordering the cylinders, on the exhaust side between or around cylinder #3. That seems to be the place that the torque is wildly different for some reason. I am curious to know the values on your engine because of this.

Napheus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:39 pm **Posts:** 57

geordi wrote:

This is not a composite gasket. It is about 5 layers of stamped steel, held together by stamped grommets on the tabs that protrude. The "leaves" (my word) of the gasket would quite readily separate from themselves without those grommets holding them together.

Whether anything crushes / deforms under head clamping, I do not know.

Reading your other thread, my answer is this: If you aren't having a loss of coolant more often than once per year, it is entirely plausible that you have not had a significant leak, and can forego the gasket at this time, in favor of just installing the studs. Please do two things however:

1: Understand that there is always the chance that you will be back in there to do the gasket if the leak reappears.

2: Measure the breaking force for each bolt, and report back to us to add to the collective knowledge of this job on these engines.

Measuring the force is fairly simple: Using your large click torque wrench (I use the $80 30 inch one from Home Depot - it clicks in both directions) set the torque to 80 lb-ft, and attempt to crack the bolt. If the wrench clicks (it should) increase the setting to 85, and try again. At the point that the bolt releases and the wrench does NOT click - that is the release torque. I made a chart of the bolt numbers according to the book's tightening sequence (I usually clean the head and write the numbers in sharpie directly on the head next to the bolt hole) and record the torque on that chart so that it can be shared with the board.

The critical ones to watch for are directly bordering the cylinders, on the exhaust side between or around cylinder #3. That seems to be the place that the torque is wildly different for some reason. I am curious to know the values on your engine because of this.

Thanks for this reply. Was not aware that the gasket was made of layers. Now I may be more inclined to change the head gasket as it isn't a true one piece stamped like I initially believed. Although both replies from you and on the other thread suggest I am not out of line in possibly wanting to forgo the head gasket due to limited leaking I have experienced. I know there is the risk I may have to go back into it if that gasket fails. I will take the bolt readings regardless and report back when I do.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:12 pm

Napheus wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

To answer the original question, I was one of the first people to install ARP studs, and I decided to do so without replacing the HG. So far, with about 12 k miles since, no more coolant leaks.

I already posted in the ARP head studs thread I was going to do studs. I may have missed it in the 14 pages of the other thread, but how bad was your leak and did the steel head gasket sway you toward studs only without head gasket replacement? I'm thinking I'm having similar issues to what prompted you replacing your bolts with studs.

Very slow, about a quart every 3 weeks or so. At first, I thought it was air working out of the head, but after the second quart, I decided that it was a HG leak, and as it was time for the timing belt anyhow, I went ahead and did studs too. Given the laminated gasket, I was reasonably sure that the HG would reseal. So far, so good.

URGENT:Leaking HG; Anybody Just Install ARPs without new HG?

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