Rocker change gone bad

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:32 pm

WOW That #2 piston looks filthy. Wonder if that was where the bad rockers were, that should certainly explain a power loss!

If you can't get a magnetic drain plug, it might not be the worst idea to try and get a couple FAT bar magnets (like a parts sweeper or something) from Harbor Freight and stick them to the outside of the pan. Anything that might help to "encourage" the debris to just hang out in the pan rather than floating around.

The screen pickup on the oil tube will prevent anything hazardous from hurting the oil pump or getting back into the system, but it would be nice to know where the debris IS. Maybe after a while (hoping it starts and runs normally) on your next oil change, slide the magnets down toward the oil drain and either poke a stick-magnet into the drain hole or see if it would flow out with the oil change anyway.

At least it rotates, that means it isn't in the balancer shaft assembly. That is a good thing.

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:40 pm

Wow. What was going wrong in cylinder 2 that made for that carbon buildup? That is bad. Injector gone south?

Keep as much of that carbon as you can from slipping down the piston wall. Shop vac and a brush.

Here's a puzzler for you: how could carbon build up on a piston enough to cause interference, especially without causing damage to the head? Not seeing it...

Wow.

As for the missing HLA parts, I think you've got the right idea: screening oil changed to see if it flushes out, and a magnetic plug couldn't hurt. For flushing the engine, I'm not sure: I have heard of people using regular diesel pouring through for this kind of thing. I don't know if it is worth it unless you are really sure that you can't account for the missing pieces and that they most likely are in the engine still. My guess is even if you flushed well, you would probably never see it: it may be caught in some odd recess down inside where it will never come out, and never do any harm, either. But it is a risk, for sure.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:45 pm

Everything has to return to the bottom eventually, and the turbulence of the oil flow may move it south as the engine is running. Big bar magnets will help discourage anything from falling through the center into the balance shaft arrangement, but if the engine is under power when something does... Chances are you may hear it burp a bit, but the pieces will be effectively munched to powder almost instantly.

Carbon build up shouldn't cause a big jam-up... But it is entirely possible that this is your situation:

Engine running poor for reasons unknown (over-stretched belt maybe?) and #2 builds soot debris in the cylinder. At some point, debris starts impacting valve travel, breaking rocker slowly enough to only pound lifter into itself without breaking rocker body. Impressive, but possible over time.

Rocker / lifter is replaced, timing reset - But NOT perfectly in-time, only matching prior incorrect setting - and on rotation of engine, freshly-tall lifter allows valve to extend deeper on opening. Piston travel now impacts properly-extending valve. (This is an interference motor, and this is the interference! Timing is CRITICAL) Since this is by hand, smallest resistance can be felt without damage, and is not forced, to possibly compress dry lifter and bypass problem until next rotation.

Solution: Now that you can clean the #2 piston, do this until it looks like the others. #3 looks factory-fresh, honestly.

Rotate engine until #1 is TDC with witness divot at top, then 90 degrees precisely (bolt hole method) clockwise... And stop. Cams pinned but cam gears loose - bolts just less than finger tight - fuel pump rotated to witness mark at approximately 8 o'clock position. Install belt, tension with cam pulleys STILL LOOSE - THEN torque cam pulleys with counter-hold bar to 80 lb-ft. Remove pins, attempt to rotate.

I hope it does, truly. After 2 rotations, the pins should run right back in smoothly. If bolt holes are vertical and horizontal, time for a beer.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:55 pm

whilst ya have the head off, I'd take some diesel fuel, or kerosene and pour/flush the passageways (where oil returns back to pan). Keep the drain plug out, and hopefully it'll wash it out. I'd imagine a chunk going through the balance shaft gears wouldn't be too cool.
Good idea on the magnetic drain plug.
If you can, jack the jeep up so the corner of the pan with the drain is really the low spot.
I've JB welded a supermag on the end of just about every one of my tractors, and heavy equipments drain plugs. Never had one come off. Just find one a tad smaller than the plug. Ace hardware or anywhere will have them.
I 'cooked' mine in a low oven to make dang sure the JB weld is cured. 150 degrees for an hour.
I'd do this before just sticking a magnet to an aluminum pan anyday. :roll:

Last I tried, mags don't stick to alum... and you'll never know if it's caught the varmint either.

Someone asked 'why now' would the engine not turn over, and not a day before? Well, the packed carbon can swell (either from oil, or just humidity) from just sitting a day or so, didn't you say it sat for a period before you did this?

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:07 pm

mecne wrote:

Head is off !!!

Here is the bottom of the head , everything looks good ..

what is that line in the surface of the head between the valves? just beyond.. to the left of the pocket? Looks suspicious to me.
OH, btw, don't believe for a second ANY type of iron, especially the roller tip.. will be 'munched to powder' in a second.. when it goes through the gears.. If it was plastic, wood, or a cheese puff, sure.
My theory? Its a crack... you had nasty combustion from that.. which loaded the cylinder with carbon...THEN that's when the tide turned on the valve train. It's hard to get any closer than that without having it in my hands.

mecne · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:31 pm

greiswig wrote:

Wow. What was going wrong in cylinder 2 that made for that carbon buildup? That is bad. Injector gone south?

Keep as much of that carbon as you can from slipping down the piston wall. Shop vac and a brush.

Shop vac'd it up right after I took the picture .

It is the cylinder that had the broken lifter / HLA

rancherman wrote:

whilst ya have the head off, I'd take some diesel fuel, or kerosene and pour/flush the passageways (where oil returns back to pan). Keep the drain plug out, and hopefully it'll wash it out. I'd imagine a chunk going through the balance shaft gears wouldn't be too cool.Someone asked 'why now' would the engine not turn over, and not a day before? Well, the packed carbon can swell (either from oil, or just humidity) from just sitting a day or so, didn't you say it sat for a period before you did this?

I was reading that about flushing with diesel fuel online on some other boards , I'm a little reluctant to do this but IDK .
The Jeep sat all last winter , until I bought it in the May . PO parked it because it was blowing black smoke , and didn't have any power .. YA NO crap !!
I drove it home , took it to my mechanic , had it looked over for a safety check , replaced the turbo hoses , and turbo ( old one was pouched 1/4 radial end play) Drove it here and there mostly moved it around my yard when it was in the way. It finally landed in my garage again a couple weeks ago.

rancherman wrote:

what is that line in the surface of the head between the valves? just beyond.. to the left of the pocket? Looks suspicious to me.

My theory? Its a crack... you had nasty combustion from that.. which loaded the cylinder with carbon...THEN that's when the tide turned on the valve train. It's hard to get any closer than that without having it in my hands.

I haven't cleaned the head yet just wiped it with a dirty rage no doubt , all my rags are pretty much black . It always amazes me how dirty the oil is in Diesels . I'd hate to see what my hands would look like if I wasn't wearing nitrate gloves ..

Question on the head gasket . Id Parts has this blurb .
The gasket size is stamped into a tab that is on the intake side of the engine between cylinders 2 and 3. Look for a tab that has a part number stamping on it. On the rear-ward end of the tab may be some circular holes. The tab can have no holes, 1 hole or two holes. The sizes are as follows:

No Holes - 1.32mm Thickness
1 Hole - 1.42 mm Thickness
2 Holes - 1.52 mm Thickness
I don't see anything stamped on mine. But the back on the exhaust side has 1 hole I think .
Here is a pic ;

Mike

rancherman · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:17 pm

Don't worry about getting too much lube washed out with a diesel fuel flush.. The oil still in the bearings will be fine.
.... some of the so called 'motor flushes' from years past were basic kerosene, you'd put in your oil for a few minutes pre draining... but those were actually circulated. You'd be just washing past the bearings. not through them.
Gasoline on the other hand... ummmm, no.

Chances are, the pieces are already in the pan, probably snagged by the OP screen. Which would drop off when engine is shut down. This is where your flex mag -through the drain hole- might snare them.
You're going to figure out this chicken or egg scenario first. Was the cylinder carboned over first, due to other reasons.. and the loaded piston then smacked the valve, which broke the HLA?
OR, did a broke HLA cause the valve not to open properly, causing poor combustion... which then puked up that one cylinder with carbon..
I don't think much of a stretched timing belt theory. There is no way it would only affect 1 cylinder. especially with that much prejudice.
That amount of carbon didn't happen overnight. It took some time, and 'pretending the engine is fine by PO'. I personally know what just 1 wore rocker arm can do on a 6 cylinder turbo diesel... tons of black smoke, barely 'nuff power to move. From that, I stick with my theory of another problem causing the carbon first. broke parts second.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:04 pm

mecne wrote:

greiswig wrote:

Wow. What was going wrong in cylinder 2 that made for that carbon buildup? That is bad. Injector gone south?

Keep as much of that carbon as you can from slipping down the piston wall. Shop vac and a brush.

Shop vac'd it up right after I took the picture .

It is the cylinder that had the broken lifter / HLA

rancherman wrote:

whilst ya have the head off, I'd take some diesel fuel, or kerosene and pour/flush the passageways (where oil returns back to pan). Keep the drain plug out, and hopefully it'll wash it out. I'd imagine a chunk going through the balance shaft gears wouldn't be too cool.Someone asked 'why now' would the engine not turn over, and not a day before? Well, the packed carbon can swell (either from oil, or just humidity) from just sitting a day or so, didn't you say it sat for a period before you did this?

I was reading that about flushing with diesel fuel online on some other boards , I'm a little reluctant to do this but IDK .
The Jeep sat all last winter , until I bought it in the May . PO parked it because it was blowing black smoke , and didn't have any power .. YA NO crap !!
I drove it home , took it to my mechanic , had it looked over for a safety check , replaced the turbo hoses , and turbo ( old one was pouched 1/4 radial end play) Drove it here and there mostly moved it around my yard when it was in the way. It finally landed in my garage again a couple weeks ago.

rancherman wrote:

what is that line in the surface of the head between the valves? just beyond.. to the left of the pocket? Looks suspicious to me.

My theory? Its a crack... you had nasty combustion from that.. which loaded the cylinder with carbon...THEN that's when the tide turned on the valve train. It's hard to get any closer than that without having it in my hands.

I haven't cleaned the head yet just wiped it with a dirty rage no doubt , all my rags are pretty much black . It always amazes me how dirty the oil is in Diesels . I'd hate to see what my hands would look like if I wasn't wearing nitrate gloves ..

Question on the head gasket . Id Parts has this blurb .
The gasket size is stamped into a tab that is on the intake side of the engine between cylinders 2 and 3. Look for a tab that has a part number stamping on it. On the rear-ward end of the tab may be some circular holes. The tab can have no holes, 1 hole or two holes. The sizes are as follows:

No Holes - 1.32mm Thickness
1 Hole - 1.42 mm Thickness
2 Holes - 1.52 mm Thickness
I don't see anything stamped on mine. But the back on the exhaust side has 1 hole I think .
Here is a pic ;

Mike

The tab you're looking for is in the middle of the gasket on the intake side.

mecne · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:18 am

rancherman wrote:

My theory? Its a crack... you had nasty combustion from that.. which loaded the cylinder with carbon...THEN that's when the tide turned on the valve train. It's hard to get any closer than that without having it in my hands.

I cleaned up the head this morning with cleaner and a clean rag , and no cracks to be found .

Mike92104 wrote:

The tab you're looking for is in the middle of the gasket on the intake side.

Here is a shot of the tab between Cylinder 2 and 3 on the intake side.

Would this be a no hole situation?

Mike

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:01 pm

From the manual:
After determining the head gasket thickness required, identify and select the proper the cylinder head gasket.

Note the identification marks (holes or notches) in the lower right hand corner.

Measure Dimension (mm) 0.460-0.609
Cylinder Head Gasket 1.32
Thickness (mm) No Holes or Notches
Piston Clearance (mm) 0.71-0.86

Measure Dimension (mm) 0.610-0.709
Cylinder Head Gasket Thickness (mm) 1.42 1 Hole or Notch
Piston Clearance (mm) 0.711-0.81

Measure Dimension (mm) 0.710-0.810
Cylinder Head Gasket Thickness (mm) 1.52 2 Holes or Notches
Piston Clearance (mm) 0.71-0.81

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:20 pm

Not to belabor the obvious but given that the head gasket sits parallel to the ground there is no "lower right hand corner"

The best description of where to look for the hole(s) or lack of a hole is from idparts "Cylinder Head Gasket Kit for the Jeep Liberty CRD. It is important that the correct cylinder head gasket size is chosen. The gasket size is stamped into a tab that is on the intake side of the engine between cylinders 2 and 3. Look for a tab that has a part number stamping on it. On the rear-ward end of the tab may be some circular holes. The tab can have no holes, 1 hole or two holes." If you zoom in on the picture at http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=3180 that looks like a 1 hole gasket.

rancherman · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:48 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Not to belabor the obvious but given that the head gasket sits parallel to the ground there is no "lower right hand corner"

The best description of where to look for the hole(s) or lack of a hole is from idparts "Cylinder Head Gasket Kit for the Jeep Liberty CRD. It is important that the correct cylinder head gasket size is chosen. The gasket size is stamped into a tab that is on the intake side of the engine between cylinders 2 and 3. Look for a tab that has a part number stamping on it. On the rear-ward end of the tab may be some circular holes. The tab can have no holes, 1 hole or two holes." If you zoom in on the picture at http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=3180 that looks like a 1 hole gasket.

Why the need for different thicknesses? was there that much variance in manufacturing.. or is it for keeping deck height maintained after milling?
ie; the thicker gaskets would only be seen or used on a milled block or head.. never from factory?

mecne · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:02 pm

papaindigo wrote:

The best description of where to look for the hole(s) or lack of a hole is from idparts "Cylinder Head Gasket Kit for the Jeep Liberty CRD. It is important that the correct cylinder head gasket size is chosen. The gasket size is stamped into a tab that is on the intake side of the engine between cylinders 2 and 3. Look for a tab that has a part number stamping on it. On the rear-ward end of the tab may be some circular holes. The tab can have no holes, 1 hole or two holes." If you zoom in on the picture at http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=3180 that looks like a 1 hole gasket.

Ya , I quoted ID parts in my first post with a picture of the wrong end of my gasket.
The ID Parts product picture is showing a 1 hole gasket I think .

My last picture is of the tab ( all rust ) between Cylinder 2 and 3 on the intake side , which doesn't have any holes in it .

I just want to make sure I order the correct one.

Thanks,
Mike

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:40 pm

rancherman wrote:

Why the need for different thicknesses? was there that much variance in manufacturing.. or is it for keeping deck height maintained after milling?
ie; the thicker gaskets would only be seen or used on a milled block or head.. never from factory?

The thickness of the Head Gasket is strictly about how much the piston protrusion is above the top of the cylinder liner according to the manual. This being an interference engine, they are making sure there is enough clearance between the top of the piston when it is at TDC and the cylinder head!.

From the VM manual:
The 2.8L aluminum, overhead valve cylinder head has different dimensions for the intake air and a bias relief port. The cylinder head itself is not resurfacable. The cylinder head uses a selectable Multi-layered Steel gasket that is available in three sizes.
(1) Use special tool VM.1010 with dial indicator special tool VM.1013
(2) Bring the piston of cylinder number 1 exactly to top dead center.
(3) Lye the straight edge special tool VM.1010 across the cylinder sleeve and zero the dial indicator on the cylinder block mating surface
(4) Lye the straight edge special tool VM.1010 across the cylinder sleeve, setup the dial indicator on the piston crown (above the center of the piston pin) 5mm (1/8 in.) from the edge of the piston and note the measurement
Establish the thickness of the gasket by averaging the four piston protrusion readings.

See my earlier post for the thickness numbers....

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:56 pm

mecne wrote:

rancherman wrote:

My theory? Its a crack... you had nasty combustion from that.. which loaded the cylinder with carbon...THEN that's when the tide turned on the valve train. It's hard to get any closer than that without having it in my hands.

I cleaned up the head this morning with cleaner and a clean rag , and no cracks to be found .

Mike92104 wrote:

The tab you're looking for is in the middle of the gasket on the intake side.

Here is a shot of the tab between Cylinder 2 and 3 on the intake side.

Would this be a no hole situation?

Mike

Looks that way.

The Picture IDParts has here:

http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=3180

Shows a 1 hole gasket for comparison.

rancherman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:52 am

WWDiesel wrote:

rancherman wrote:

Why the need for different thicknesses? was there that much variance in manufacturing.. or is it for keeping deck height maintained after milling?
ie; the thicker gaskets would only be seen or used on a milled block or head.. never from factory?

The thickness of the Head Gasket is strictly about how much the piston protrusion is above the top of the cylinder liner according to the manual. This being an interference engine, they are making sure there is enough clearance between the top of the piston when it is at TDC and the cylinder head!.

quote]

So, it's manufacturing variances. Gotcha.
figuring deck height during the initial machining will get them very close, but until a crank, rods, and pistons are installed, the final protrusion would be next to impossible (quickly in an assembly line) to zero in on and make up for it with gaskets. Nothing wrong with that!

mecne · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:53 pm

Ordered everything today from ID Parts , and had it shipped to a Kinek location in Buffalo NY , and picking it up later this week while I am in Niagara Falls for a conference .

The kinek.com https://www.kinek.com/ shipping locations are amazing for us canuks .. I use it constantly for shipping stuff to the border and then just pop over the border and pick everything up.

So won't be able to get back to working on it until the weekend .

Used a lightly oiled rag and wiped down the top of the block , so it doesn't start to rust.
Injector tips are soaking in diesel fuel , and rockers are back in there oil bath ..

Thanks Again everyone for the help and advise .
If I could buy you all a drink I would .

Cheers ,
Mike

mecne · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:14 pm

Getting everything back together today.
New head gasket , studs , intake , and everything on the drivers side is back on .
Timing belt is on and tensioned but I think I need to redo it for my question #1 below .
Have rotated it by hand several times with no binding :pepper:

( did this after the head was on several times too)
Taking a break for a bit , have some running around to do .

Some Questions ;
1. The injector pump is off by 4 or 5 teeth . How critical is the pump timing ?
Is there any way of getting it timed with the witness marks when leaving the cam gears loose tensioning method?

2. I have a plug that I'm not sure where it goes .
It's in the harness with the fuel filer plugs and has a green cover .

Cheers ,

Mike

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:26 pm

Endless debate over whether or not the CP3/fuel pump needs to be timed or not with as far as I know no definitive answer. I have no clue how to retime it if it gets out of time; yes I know about the marks but they only line up ca. every 3 rotations but where and in what rotation I have no clue. For the TB jobs I've "touched" we marked the pump pulley teeth and adjacent housing and kept it in the same position as we found it.

The plug is probably the Water In Fuel sensor plug (bottom of fuel filter)

mecne · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:40 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Endless debate over whether or not the CP3/fuel pump needs to be timed or not with as far as I know no definitive answer. I have no clue how to retime it if it gets out of time; yes I know about the marks but they only line up ca. every 3 rotations but where and in what rotation I have no clue. For the TB jobs I've "touched" we marked the pump pulley teeth and adjacent housing and kept it in the same position as we found it.

I have it marked from when I took it apart .
How do you do you Timing belt tension and not have it move? I did it twice and it moves when the slack is taken up.

papaindigo wrote:

The plug is probably the Water In Fuel sensor plug (bottom of fuel filter)

That's it , forgot about that one .. Thanks.

One more question , I have the air bleed from the filter head , is there a way to bleed the air from the fuel rail?

Mike

Rocker change gone bad

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