To be, or not to be....or, STARTING FLUID vs Diesel engines

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:06 pm

Specific reason to NOT use any type of starting fluid on this VM 2.8L CRD engine, NONE of the GM Diesel engines, and NONE of the Cummins Diesel engines is very simple:

Starting fluid usually comprises ether, or\and lacquer thinner, or\and several other extremely volatile petroleum derivatives - meaning they evaporate and flash to ignition\combustion (explode) at temperatures way below 1200*F

~1200*F is minimal combustive temperature of Diesel fuel

VM 2.8L CRD engine has glow-plugs which glow above ~1200*F

GM 6.2L, 6.5L, and DMAXX also have glow-plugs which glow above ~1200*F - PLUS the DMAXX has an intake heater which glows above ~1200*F

CUMMIN(no g, eh)S Diesel and CRD has intake heater which glows above ~1200*f

Spray any starting fluid into large volume of intake path betwen air filter and intake manifold of VM CRD, what happens soon as intake valve opens, exposing 1200*F glow-plug to extremely volatile starting fluid vapors?

Same with GM Diesel engines, but much worse with DMAXX CRD

Why much worse with DMAXX and CUMMINS engines? Because the 1200*F glowing intake heater is fully exposed to any vapors sprayed into the intake duct long before the intake valve opens

What can\does\has happen when starting fluid is used on a recalcitrant Diesel engine? Immediate violent flash-back into face of the intrepid shade sprayer, which flashback usualy additionally ignites the sprayed stream at the nozzle of the can - this has resuted in the can exploding with even more serious injury to the shade behind the can

Not even a good idea, no matter what the shade's peers are "advising\encouraging\daring" him to do

Why "to be or not to be"? Incidence of serious injury and even death has resulted from starting-fluid back-flash\explosion -

Word up, dudes..................

edited for spelling, syntax, conceptual clarity

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:23 pm

Also pertinent to the subject of winter-starting, this:

This time of year, with increasingly damp and frigid ambients, slow\no start and many other symptoms can be traced to corroded battery posts and terminal clamps - pull the clamps, clean and wire-brush the battery posts and clamps to remove any\all corrosion - coat the posts and clamps with petroleum jelly (Vaseline), which both allows electrical connection and insulates that restored connectivity from humidity and moisture, preventing corrosion -

Reinstall terminal clamps, tighten, and yer good to go fer a 'nuther year......................

p.s. - suitable combination battery-post\terminal wire-brush type cleaners are available at HARBOR FREIGHT and most automobile parts houses, including wally-world - enjoy...................

p.p.s. - packs of green and red felt washers for battery posts are also available at those locations - washers are to be impregnated with VASELINE, then installed over each post - red on POS, green on NEG - which can protect the electrical connection thru several winter seasons

Always pays to inspect the battery seasonally, tho...............................

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:48 pm

Smoke is not vapor

The article below is best illustrated by referencing following backyard charcoal grilling techniques

Notice when starting the fire:
Charcoal briquettes are usually encouraged to ignite and glow by use of an accelerant, usually a lighter\starter fluid consisting of
petroleum napthta-
- douse the briquettes with fluid, apply igniton and whoosh - flame flares up, briquettes eventually begin to glow
- apply more fluid, flame flares, white vapor can be seen whooshing up into the ozone layer
- impatiently applying ever more fluid results in ever more white vapors, tho decreasing as coals begin to glow
- odor is of raw starting fluid

Those vapors are resulted from starting-fluid fuel which never achieved combustion temperature because the coals were too cold
The flames resulted from the fuel that did reach combustion temperature and ignited

Now the coals are glowing, but several areas are still black, so more starting fluid is squirted into the conflagration -
- attempting to further douse the coals, the can is squeezed extra hard and the flame flares brightly
- impatiently, even more fuel is squirted, but flame is now accompanied by dense black smoke with odor of burned starter fluid
- any more fuel applied results in blacker denser smoke

This really is smoke, resulted from incomplete combustion of fuel - the black component in the smoke is that carbonized fuel which quickly
reached combustion temperature but the already burning fuel quickly consumed all the oxygen, extinguishing the fire, leaving the heated
carbonized soot to quickly drop below combustion temperature while whooshing up into the ozone layer

This dense carbonized-fuel soot will carry combustion temperatures thru the exhaust port and into the turbocharger turbine, and as such can be
very damaging to the turbine wheel

Alternately, clean fully-combusted Diesel exhaust, being much less dense than the black sooty exhaust, cools much quicker, allowing the Diesel
engine to produce more work at lower EGT's

Wanna roll some coal?

Better get an Exhaust Gas Temperature gage installed in the exhaust manifold directly ahead of the turbocharger - and watch it like you watch
porn videos (but without the prerequisite associated activity, eh - very dangerous while driving, even if you are ambidexterous).......................

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:50 pm

Even more good stuff, FYI

Smoke vs vapor, white vs black, never the twain shall meet ......... or, whut's it all about, Alfalfa?
(Sung to the popular '80's tune of "What's it all about, Alfie?"

Diesel fuel is a light petroleum-based oil
A Diesel engine is a heat-of-compression ignition engine
Diesel fuel minimal temperature to begin ignition\combustion is ~1200*F
Diesel fuel full combustion temperature is ~1750*F, and will go higher with increased fuel, air, and loading
Diesel fuel exhaust temperature after combustion is ~275*F at 30mph to above 1800*F under increased loading

Some above figures confirmed with EGT gage probe mounted directly in center floor of 2.8L exhaust manifold port to turbocharger

A Diesel-engined vehicle owner will usually notice two types of emissions exhausting from the vehicle - depending on the color, it is either
gray to black smoke resulting from incomplete combustion, or translucent blue\white to white vapor, resulted from raw fuel at below-combustion temperatures, or evaporating moisture in exhaust system, ambient temperatures and humidity dependent

Black smoke is resulted when Diesel fuel combusts, but there is more fuel than oxygen so the fire goes out, leaving sooty carbon residue
of unburned fuel which passes out the exhaust system and is seen as smoke - smoke is resulted from combustion - black smoke has odor of
burned Diesel fuel

Smoke is not vapor

White vapor is resulted when Diesel fuel fails to combust due to too much fuel, too much injection advance, too cold compression temperature -
engine runs because part of the fuel achieves combustion temperature but flame goes out, remaining fuel is injected into cylinder with reduced
temperature - highly heated raw fuel passes out into the exhaust system and is seen as pale-bluish white vapor - this vapor has odor of raw
Diesel fuel

Sometimes engine coolant can leak into the heated exhaust system and passes out as white water vapor - this vapor has odor of ethylene glycol,
antifreeze - if coolant leak is directly into hot exhaust port, resultant white vapor has distinctly disgusting odor of something nasty, which
is burned ethylene glycol

These type leaks will result in loss of coolant without indication of residue in radiator or water in oil or oil in water

Further:

Water in oil usually results from coolant leak into valve cover, lifter valley, and crankcase area, low-pressure areas which cannot force
engine oil into 16psi coolant system

Oil in coolant usually results from cracked engine castings into oil gallery, where oil pressure exceeds 16psi coolant pressure, forcing oil
into water jacket

Combustion detritus in coolant usually results from cracked engine castings in combustion chamber area, where compression and combustion
temperatures far exceed 16psi coolant pressure - this will usually result in much coolant loss
This can usually be seen by removing radiator cap prior to starting cold engine, observing quick formation of bubbles in coolant as compression
leaks into water jacket above combustion chamber

Engine coolant passing thru combustion chamber can result in smokey exhaust vapor with distinctly disgusting nasty odor with faint burned
Diesel fuel odor - burned ethylene glycol results in hazy gray smoke from lower combustion temps due to engine coolant

Trailbreaker · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:05 pm

OK!! So what if the glow plugs were disabled.Are there any other issues with using SF in a diesel engine like ours.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:36 pm

Yes, and my bad for not stating the (to me) obvious answer to that, with worse-case scenario:

Starting fluid ignites at ~450*F - as the piston moves upward, compressed air temperatures in the cylinders quickly reach ~1200*F and above such that fuel can be injected near the top of the stroke, with resultant combustion - glow plugs can be utilized to raise cylinder temps for ease of starting in cold ambients - with starting fluid in the cylinder at the beginning of the compression stroke you'll get a condition called pre-ignition, where the starting fluid ignites early in the compression stroke, driving cylinder pressures higher than designed-for, and can result in cracked pistons, even bent rods in the larger high-displacement engines - Diesel fuel injected into a cylinder where combustion is already in progress can ignite and tend to push the piston back and downward into the compression stroke

As the starting fluid ignites\burns, it then consumes a portion of the oxygen required to ignite the Diesel fuel, which can further delay the desired condition of start-and-run

I know, I know - many shades have used starting fluids in the past with little observable damage (meaning, without tearing the engine down, any resulted damage cannot be seen), but I have never recommended it, preferring instead to address the electrical connections, electrical and mechanical condition of the starter motor (higher starting rpm = quicker starting due to quicker cylinder-pressure buildup), remove air filter to allow more air into cylinders, Diesel fuel enhancers, etc, plus ensuring the glow-plug system is up to design-spec -

Usually, addressing the battery and starter-motor to ensure highest starting rpm helps a bunch in winter ambients - this generally involves cleaning a year of accumulated corrosion\oxidation from battery posts and terminal clamps to restore full ampacity

Even my MULE, with 3-cyl DAIHATSU Diesel with timed glow, will grind and grind at one rpm level, generally fast enuff to enable starting in summer climes - winter ambients usually require quick battery charge and it zips right into running\idling - slow cranking very probably resulted from increased glow-time and increased effective oil viscosity due to winter ambients

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:32 pm

If I have to use ether, I skip the glowplug sequence and go right to start as if starting a gas engine. The point of ether is to GET pre ignition so that it can raise cylinder Temps high enough to light the fuel. It is more harsh on on the older indirect injected motors because of the pre combustion chambers trying to hold back an explosion, rather than a fuel burn like it was designed for.

Direct injection engines have lower compression usually 17-18:1 so they can tolerate ether a lot better. Also the bent rods come from someone spraying a big shot of ether and hydrolocking a cylinder while others light off. All that should be needed is a quick pffft.

Also a flame cannot travel back and explode the can for 2 reasons, (1) the can has higher pressure than atmosphere. Energy goes from high to low not the other way around.
(2) oxygen is required for a fuel to burn, there's is 0% oxygen in the can, it is compressed by carbon dioxide, which displaces oxygen. If the can is empty and has nothing but fumes left then it might be possible.

Almost forgot that a lot of the newer diesels don't have glow plugs or heaters, but rather ether injection. Start cranking, push a button and off she goes...

greiswig · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:36 pm

Trailbreaker wrote:

OK!! So what if the glow plugs were disabled.Are there any other issues with using SF in a diesel engine like ours.

Yes. As gmctd already stated in more words, you can't control when timing will occur on a diesel. And because of the lower flash point, it will fire much too early in the stroke, which may or may not cause damage, may or may not cause the engine to try to run backward.

My Unimog has a little pump in the cab that is to be used only in very cold weather starting emergencies. You start cranking, then push a plunger to push a carefully metered dose of fluid into the intake. Near as most can tell, it is mostly gasoline. But this is on an engine that is low compression, has no glow plugs at all, and is designed to run on everything from very low grade oils on up to Jet A.

So yeah, there are some reasons not to.

dkenny · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:48 pm

while I put starting fluid into both the VM2.8 and a cummins 5.9...
the vm2.8 handled it better and I thought safer..no I didn't spray it directly in to the intake
in either engine..spray on the air filter..

I would also question the 1800F EGT..seems about 400F high..this in the exhaust not the cylinder.
at what temp do the exhaust valve melt? the cylinder head in the exhaust ports?
just wondering..I haven't seen 1300F on my cummins towing a 4000lbs trailer up a hill??

-dkenny

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:21 pm

I 'm talking peak EGT's, pedal to the metal, blowing some black smoke on full power run with EDGE module boosting
In-Motion hot tune, done while testing limitations - under normal circumstances I don't recommend any higher EGT's than you mention - my advice to the coal-rollers, withstanding

Black smoke will always result in higher EGT's than clear exhaust due to the mass of the heavy combustion-carbonized soot content, thus my continued advice on purchasing and installing an EGT gage - clear fully-combusted exhaust gas has no mass to retain temperature, resulting in quickly-dropping levels after gasses pass exhaust valves and out into head ports

Probe location in the exhaust manifold is very important for correct temperature measurement where proximity to exhaust valve in any port will give elevated readings vs those from centrally-mounted probe close to the manifold outlet port - where I always mount mine, tho I have clamped a probe inside the manifold directly adjacent an exhaust valve-stem for reference - much hotter, there, even after expansion as the piston drops and returns on the exhaust stroke

Further:
I've been trying to compose a suitable riposte whereby a ~1/4" thick acetylene bottle full of extremely flammable acetylene gas at much higher
than atmospheric pressures, with required regulator attached, can back-flash with resulting expulsion of a heavy brass valve, releasing
roiling clouds of lovely orange flames and black smoke, whilst simultaneously propelling the heavy bottle across the yard thru walls and
equipment, in comparison to an empty blackened ether starting-fluid can with bottom blown out, sides ripped apart like peeled-back foil on a hershey bar,
after a flash-back incident as shown in various OSHA-santioned safety videos - but, I just can't quite put those words together.............

However, being short on prose at this juncture, I simply would not advise the use of starting-fluid with Diesel engines because they do not utilize spark-ignition systems, along with those associated concepts

p.s.

FYI, it is not atmospheric pressure trying to back-feed into the can of ether starting-fluid - it is, rather, a rapidly-advancing flame-front voraciously consuming a highly flammable fuel back to it's source - unless I am mistaken, that is a slightly different concept than a low-pressure trying to enter a high-pressure container, eh..............

pp.s.

I have been considering this seemingly sudden rash of FPS, FQS, RPS, etc failures with some concern - seems like every time someone services the engine, or after merely switching IGN off and trying to restart, a won't start-won't run post is logged indicating some rail pressure DTC

Suddenly realizing that our '05 and '06 CRD KJ's are now right at 9 and 10 years old, this may be early warning indicating priority service to the rail pressure system is required - it is designed to maintain vhp levels 6000~22,500psi, not even in the same ballpark as water-pump seals, or fuel-line o'rings

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:48 pm

Starting fluid works great in Spud Guns, but I keep it away from my CRD and my Wife's TDI.
Last time I used starting fluid was to check to see if a small gas engine had an ignition or fuel problem.

I used to own a Perkins 354 T that I transplanted into a '73 Chevy C-30 that used starting fluid to start. It had no glow plugs or manifold heater. The starting fluid was in a cylinder that looked like a propane torch cylinder and had a choke type cable that went into the cab. Start cranking, pull out the cable and shove it back in, the engine started, even in sub zero weather.
Later model Perkins engines used a Thermo-Start that had a heater and small injector that would start a fire in the intake manifold.
I traded the Chevy for my CRD and never did the Thermo-Start upgrade.
GMCTD is right about Starting Fluid and modern diesel engines, go to the Casino to gamble if you must.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:47 pm

I'm been saying this for a while now... usually folks argue with me, etc. (see some of my old posts). I have rebuilt MANY VW diesel engines due to starting fluid use. 9 times out of 10 it breaks piston rings. In one case, it bent the connecting rod. I still have the piston/rod somewhere, but have since moved, and it is likely buried in a box somewhere. I posted a picture on here some time ago.

rancherman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:48 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

Starting fluid works great in Spud Guns, but I keep it away from my CRD and my Wife's TDI.
Last time I used starting fluid was to check to see if a small gas engine had an ignition or fuel problem.

I used to own a Perkins 354 T that I transplanted into a '73 Chevy C-30 that used starting fluid to start. It had no glow plugs or manifold heater. The starting fluid was in a cylinder that looked like a propane torch cylinder and had a choke type cable that went into the cab. Start cranking, pull out the cable and shove it back in, the engine started, even in sub zero weather.
Later model Perkins engines used a Thermo-Start that had a heater and small injector that would start a fire in the intake manifold.
I traded the Chevy for my CRD and never did the Thermo-Start upgrade.
GMCTD is right about Starting Fluid and modern diesel engines, go to the Casino to gamble if you must.

Good ol days for sure!
Many of my Perkies have this too, some are just a simple fitting in the intake.. hard line to a solenoid, and finally the throw away ether can... a quick touch of the 'button' 1/4 second?? and off ya go.
My favorite is my big Cummins.. you basically drizzle raw diesel fuel into a little cup inside the intake, where a heating coil bursts it into flames. When you 'see' a nice orange ball through the sight glass, you crank her up. Heck of a sequence! (plus, the resulting smoke cloud has the neighbors running!)

Spraying ether into the intake of this jeep, even a LONG 1 second spray... will be diluted pretty far down by the time it gets to the actual cylinder.. All the air that's in the cac hoses, the cooler itself.. will make 'short bursts' of ether pretty 'non responsive'. So what happens next? keep spraying. NOT A GOOD IDEA. Especially in this engine; they are apparently not known for real strong HG's or bolts in the first place. This is where you'll see problems long before a bent rod. Blown gaskets and/or stretched headbolts come first.
Today was my first time at starting my Jeep in the cold. It is 5 degrees out, and it sat outside last night at 2 below. I plugged in the block for about 45 minutes, and it popped right to life. maybe 1 second of cranking before it lit.
Which immediately informed me of a bad motor mount! The rougher running engine was really hitting the apparently hammered out MM. Soon as I put it in gear, it stopped. Time to order more parts!

minisub · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:29 am

Ive read that one of the early proposals from Cummins for the 5.9 in the Ram included ether injection as the cold-start strategy. Sounded much like the system in the Perkins. Chrysler rejected it, not for fear of damage, but of owners forgetting to keep the reseviour full.

While I've never had to resort to anything more than a heat gun in the intake of my little 3 cylinder yanmar, I've read WD40 works and is safe even with glow plugs.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:40 pm

Been wondering how long B4 someone bro't up the WD-40 scenario, so..........

Any liquid that is flammable and can be vaporized and will ignite is flammable and will combust - some more so than others

ETHER is way more flammable than WD-40, but WD-40 is flammable and can flash-back - try spraying a stream of WD-40 into a flame, or
into the hot heating elements of your favorite shop-heater - is even more fun when the heater elements are glowing red,
like a gow plug or intake heater -

BE PREPARED FOR SOME FLASH-BACK TOWARDS THE NOZZLE AS THE FLAME FOLLOWS THE FUEL STREAM TO IT'S SOURCE

As such, WD-40 could be used as a safer (but not by much!) starting-fluid, if properly safe procedures are strictly followed

I do not generally recommend this because of the bone-headed shades that invariably mis-think and mis-apply the 'more is better' concept

This procedure should never be attemped without an assistant to man (or woman) the START switch

1st - have an agreeable assistant to manage the IGN switch, preferably with good hearing and a sound-understanding of the locally-spoken language that is native to the locale

2nd - remove the air filter - the filter element comprises a stranded-fiber paper mat with interstices sized approprate to intake volume of the
engine - 'nuther words, there are tiny spaces in the matted element which allows passage of air while blocking particles of dust and other
air-borne detritus

Problem being, the filter mat is easily compromised by ingestion of liquids, which are all much denser than air - water is usually worse than
other liquids because the mat is usually made of paper - what happens is, the liquid softens the mat, allowing it to deform, closing the interstices due to shrinkage during evaporation

Vacuum resulted during cranking the engine further collapses the wet or dry interstices, creating further partially-blocked filter-element

This is very detrimental to Diesel engine operation, which by design draws full cylinder-displacement of air on each intake stroke - reduced air
intake volume results in black smoke with reduced power, just as with dirty air filter -

However, this partially-blocked air filter looks clean, not in any need of replacement

Gasoline engines are not nearly susceptible due to the throttle-valve, which is seldom at wide-open configuration - they mostly run with the
throttle nearly closed = less air intake volume

Why is this important? Any WD-40 or other starting-fluid sprayed into the air filter element will result in filter element distortion and blockage at the instant of cranking

So, remove the air filter element

3rd - stand by the air filter housing, spray can at the ready, aimed into air filter housing

4rth - have the assistant begin cranking the engine B4 beginning to spray the WD-40 - this prevents vapor-accumulation in the intake tract which is highly contributive to flash-back

5th - spray only after crankshaft has begun rotating - this will ensure that any sprayed vapors are immediately
'sucked' into the cylinders for combustion within the cylinders - hopefully, this will also 'suck' any flashed-back flames into said cylinders, thus subverting MURPHY's law

Continual spray is dangerous and not necessary - sprayed bursts will promote combustion and running - more is not better

6th - cease spraying when engine lites off on Diesel fuel, as is inherent in the intrinsic design concept of said engine

7th - re-cap the WD-40 can and safely replace it in it's assigned area for later use - engine is warming up during this safety interlude -
also, MURPHY is ever-vigilant, always looking for any chink in the best-laid plans of mice and men

8th - replace air filter while engine is running, allowing further required warm-up to operating temperature B4 moving vehicle

9th - pay asisstant, replace tools, cleanup area, or..............

Alternate 9th - put up tools, cleanup area

10th - cleanup hands and other involved body-parts with lanolin and aloe vera-based gentleman's hand cleaner for that manly soft-skin comfort

11th - take assistant out for nice evening of dinner and dancing - any significant other should then become most accomodating, as a desired result

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:19 pm

11 steps lol? Maybe you can play around like that in Texas. Even God didn't have that many commands!

My process when it's 0F? 1/4 second spray of ether into bottom of airbox, crank like normal and drive away...

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:58 am

Butcept for the last three items, easier done than read...............

Further, Moses came down with over 300 commandments, laws, rules, and ordnances - some cloistered body in a freezing Roman-Catholic monastery on the side of a mountain in the Italian Alps prolly read thru them in similar spirit with similar reaction, hastily translating and scribing only 1 thru 10 onto the parchment for Holy Day mass - so now we got ten and holidays................

Also, the term ordnances is correctly used, here - we get enuff ordinances from local and state government - Moses bringing ordnances down was a direct sign that we have the God-given right to own a gun......or several, thereof -

The A.R.A. has been around far longer than you might think..................

Cal S. · **Joined:** Sat May 25, 2013 11:02 am **Posts:** 7

Wife's 06 card won't start, anti gel added and 911, new glow plugs and vehicle plugged in. Engine turns over and almost starts but won't. ....any more suggestions?

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:26 pm

Cranking rpm is very critical in cold weather - engine will be sluggish due to cold oil in the bearings
- engine may not start with reduced cranking rpm
- engine will not start with low cranking rpm
- rpm will be reduced by worn starter brushes and bearings - these KJ's are almost 9~10 years old at the end of 2014
- rpm will be reduced by weakened battery output - old battery, or low electrolyte in any of the 6 cells
- rpm will be reduced by oxidized\corroded battery posts - oxidation\corrosion is resistive\insulative
- green stuff on the posts = slow-crank\no-start
- if posts are pristine, try charging the battery AFTER removing one cable, which will prevent damaging the ECM\electronics\electrical system
- do not allow the removed cable terminal to touch the post while charging

AUTOZONE will test battery for free - and may even remove the green stuff from posts and cables, for free

Bushman5 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:05 am **Posts:** 276

ether is best used the following way. :SOMBRERO:

buy a dozen cans of ether, heck buy 2 dozen cans of ether. Buy 10 dozen flats of beer. Buy several dozen smokies, and some hamburgers and some buns and cheese and stuff. Load your charcoal or propane grill into the 4x4, call your buddies and go drive :JEEPIN:

for several hours in the backcountry. Find a suitable camping spot and break out the chainsaw and cut a lot of firewood. Build a BIG fire. BONFIRE> :CAMPING: