Shudder and Stall on After Startup

fatweasel · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:20 am

My 2005 CRD has recently developed a disturbing trend. This has happened about 3 times over the past two weeks.

On cold mornings, shortly after starting the engine as I shift the Liberty into "drive" it starts to shudder violently.

If I immediately (within a second or two) shift to "Neutral" the shudder goes away. If I leave it in "Drive" it stalls.

When shift to "Park" and re-start the engine things seem OK.

So far has happened about 3 times in the last couple weeks.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:48 am

Yes.
This is the common transmission drain back problem.
Let it idle in neutral for a minute before putting into drive.
That should get the fluid pumped up where it needs to be and keep it from stalling.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:03 am

X2. I can affirmatively state that this is the classic transmission fluid drain back issue that's been around since at least the first gen DCJ minivan back in 1984. In the case of the CRD it's related to either 1) a failed check valve in one of the two internal transmission filters (cure service tranny with quality name brand filter replacement), this is the most likely reason; 2) a failing transmission front pump (cure live with it until you have to replace the front pump as that involves dropping tranny); 3) possibly low tranny fluid (try adding 1 qt of ATF+4 and see what happens); 4) probably not your issue but if it's a constant problem can be a dropped or split filter or loose side plate on tranny valve body (cure service tranny as in #1 and check valve body side plate while in there; consider Transgo kit which includes better side plate).

I lived with this for like 20K miles until getting my SunCoast. The problem only happens when the vehicle has been sitting for ca. 6-8+ hrs. As soon as you crank up 1) shift into gear; 2) if you don't immediately feel the light "clunk" of the tranny engaging or if the vehicle doesn't immediately move on the flat; 3) immediately shift into neutral (not park as fluid pumps faster in neutral) and hold a high (ca 1000-1200 rpm) idle for like 15 seconds; 4) shift into gear and drive but if there is any hesitation repeat #3. The issue is harmless but very annoying. Has nothing to do with cold weather rather it's how long the vehicle has been sitting.

FYI sometimes if you get the hard stall that will trigger a CEL/MIL which will go away after like 5 good clean drive cycles.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:41 am

Yes, been there and done that! Do as Flash suggested, right after starting in park, put tranny in neutral and let pump charge everything up good for about 15 seconds. Also very important, add some more ATF fluid (ATF+4) to the transmission, at least a half a qt. extra. Level should be about 1/2 inch above the full mark when hot. The dipsticks are notorious for not reading the correct level and low level at startup causes all kinds of foaming problems. :roll:

Both of these suggestions seems to have helped some on here, if they do not help your problem, you may want to consider dropping the pan and installing new filters (service transmission). If it still continues, the problem could be in the front pump assembly. :wink:

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:28 pm

Long ago and far away, DCJ attempted to improve CAFE by reducing engine loading caused by the front pump when the vehicle was stationary, non-moving - this was done by limiting fluid flow to the pump when in PARK and NEUTRAL, which quickly resulted in vehicle not moving in REVERSE or DRIVE after start-up, delay increasing as mileage accrued - delay resulted when fluid drained out of the TC, which then required re-filling at start-up, which it could not in PARK - no fluid coupling = no movement

Fluid-coupling allows no movement, engine running, DRIVE (or any other) range - even at max malfunction, transmission in all ranges simultaneously, engine will not shudder and die

This would not cause any engine loading resulting in shudder and stop, TC being a fluid coupling - if shudder\stop is happening with the KJ, some valving must be causing TC Clutch application when PARKed, during\after drain-back - this is way more of a problem than simple drain-back, which would only cause delay till movement - TC Clutch apply is direct-coupling to whatever range is currently-enabled in the transmission, which is why when you step on the brakes, even momentarily, TCM immediately disengages the TC Clutch

TCC lockup appears to be de-clutching during TC refill after start-up delay in PARK or NEUTRAL

Overriding ECM\TCM control with a manual switch can occasionally cause the shudder when coming to a stop, usually due to preoccupation of the nut behind the steering wheel, remembering the switch only upon sudden violent shuddering of the vehicle - and, don't ask me how I know that, eh.....................

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:01 pm

I really don't want to start a technical discussion but based on experience with this DCJ issue dating back to 1984/85:
1. way back then my godfather owned the dealership so I had 1 on 1 direct access to the mechanics and the solution was to drop the tranny pan to get access to an anti-drain back valve and "knurl" something in that valve to prevent it sticking open which usually solved the problem. I can also state that if the valve stuck and you checked your tranny dipstick before starting the fluid level was WAY up there.
2. I will certainly agree that when this happened on my several DCJ minivans there was a no go until pumped up but at the same time there was no shudder/stall.
3. fast forward to my 2n 05 CRD. Same delayed engagement same solution (hold high idle in neutral - per FSM fluid pumps faster in neutral). However, occasionally if one pushes driving off there may be, statement of fact, a shudder and stall almost like one dumped a manual clutch improperly (been there done that at least 3 times). If that happens repeating the high idle in neutral fixes the problem also if you flip tranny into neutral at first sign of shudder and hold high idle that also fixes the problem. Why the shudder and die I have no clue but it's directly related to drain back.

For what it's worth partial direct quote from "TSB 21-007-06 APR 06 A/T - Delayed Shift Engagement/Related DTC's Set
THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-016-05, DATED SEPTEMBER 01, 2005, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. THIS IS A COMPLETE REVISION. Models: 2005 - 2006 (KJ) Liberty / Cherokee NOTE: This bulletin applies to vehicles equipped with the a 45RFE or a 545RFE automatic transmission (sales code DG4 or DGQ respectively) having a specific transmission build date code (see the below DIAGNOSIS section for further details). Overview: This bulletin involves verifying the build date of the transmission, and if necessary, the replacement of both the cooler return and sump filters in the transmission.
Symptom/Condition: The customer may experience an initial delayed shift engagement following an extended off (not running) period of time, generally after being parked overnight. The initial shift engagement may feel like a delay or slip when a transmission gear (reverse or drive) is first selected after engine start. The customer may also experience a MIL illumination. Investigation may determine that the MIL is due to one or more of the following Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's)" I suspect what's referred to as a "slip" can manifest as a shudder and die and I can affirmatively state that yes a MIL may set but will clear on it's own.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:17 pm

Mostly agreed, but FYI:

Slip is what causes you to fall on icy surfaces

Friction is what keeps you from falling on icy surfaces

Slip is primary factor in fluid couplings - no friction

Fluid couplings are rated to stall speed, the rpm of maximum slippage

Friction is primary factor in clutches - much friction

Clutches are almost never rated to stall speed

545RFE TCC uses both concepts, torque converter slip and torque converter clutch friction

Torque converter clutch can lose friction with resulting slip

Torque converter fluid coupling cannot increase friction with resulting loss of slip

Torque converter fluid coupling cannot load engine to crankshaft stop (stall) when transmission is in any gear range, vehicle stopped

Torque converter clutch application can load engine to crankshaft stop (stall) when transmission is in any gear range, vehicle slowing or stopped

Yes, drain-back results in no-move and slippage, but, unless the engine is not running well, this has increased slippage, which will not stall the engine

Note: ECM monitors angular velocity at the crank speed sensor - if engine rpm drops even slightly between combustion events, ECM dumps
additional fuel to compensate, thus maintaining desired rpm
- this is why you don't experience rpm drop when selecting any gear range, turning on a\c, or steering in mud or wet sand
- only a difference in engine loading is noticeable

Shudder can be caused by engine rpm slowing\stalling, very noticeable in 4cyls, markedly so in Diesel 4cyls

Shudder can be caused by erratic flutter-type slippage in clutch-paks

Shudder can be caused by erratic flutter-type TCC apply\de-apply

The shudder and stall symptom indicates friction is overriding normal fluid coupling slippage, stalling the engine

Again, this barring any incidence of extremely poorly-runing engine at start-up and resumption of normal 545RFE hydraulic function

As suggested, let trans warm-up for a bit B4 selecting any desired gear range, until you can have it repaired

Shudder and Stall on After Startup

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