Head Gasket Size???

Rabert · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2015 12:52 pm

I noticed on a popular supplier's website that when ordering a Head Gasket they are asking for a 1 or 2 hole gasket. Is there a way to know without seeing it? I am starting tear-down after a flagellant coolant tank experience and missing coolant (1/2 of tank gone) and would like to order stuff to put back together. I strongly suspect the head gasket with the usual symptoms and 135K "happy owner" miles. BTW still a happy owner, looking forward to the tear-down and tear-up

Thanks!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2015 1:18 pm

Drivers side of the engine.
There is a broad tab sticking out from the head gasket between cylinders 2 and 3.
In that tab will be 1 hole, 2 holes, or 0 holes.
Its gonna be pretty hard to see. You might have to remove the intake elbow to get a good look without removing the intake manifold.

Are you absolutely sure that its the head gasket and not the EGR cooler?
An EGR cooler leak can display the same symptoms as a head gasket leak.
You may want to consider doing the Stage 1 and 2 EGR delete kits from Sasquatch Motorsports.
Saquatch Motorsports can also rent you the proper timing belt tools.
Also, while the head is off, get it checked for flatness and tested for cracks.
And installing ARP studs will help prevent future head gasket failure.

This is not a job you want to do twice.
Read about my experience here: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81813

geordi · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2015 1:28 pm

If you are not comfortable doing this amount of work, I can be available to take care of it for you. The head gasket is a solid 16 hour job according to the book labor values, I can usually do it in less than two days. For a first timer, plan on at least 4-5 days of downtime and 25 hours of work to allow for double-checking yourself. It is a bear of a job, truly.

The tab can be seen as described, and you will want to strongly consider the intake elbow kit and replacing the glow plugs and maybe the rockers at this point if there is any question about their condition. The amount of work is impressive, and the elbow kit offers many benefits - not the least of which is that it makes the reassembly suck a LOT less. The factory elbow is a hateful design.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

geordi wrote:

The factory elbow is a hateful design.

Step 1:

Step 2:

Step 3:

geordi · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2015 3:24 pm

weeks101 wrote:

geordi wrote:

The factory elbow is a hateful design.

Step 1:

Step 2:

Step 3:

I KNOW THAT'S RIGHT!!!!!

Thankfully, the owners of each of the CRDs that I have had to remove the elbow kit myself haven't been around the truck when I work that thing out of the engine. The amount of cussing would make a sailor turn blue. Lol. I haven't had to do that with all of them thankfully, some save some money by doing the teardown themselves... But I'd imagine that those folks were doing the cussing for me.

Such a pain in the arse. :5SHOTS:

Rabert · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2015 7:15 pm

Thanks all, I will look for the tab this afternoon. I have already done the Stage 1, Received the Stage 2 Kit and on the list to do, glow plugs replaced, GDE Tune, OME lift etc. I plan on doing the ARP stud replacement and new rockers while in there. No I am not 100% sure on head gasket vs oil/coolant exchanger. However, the loss of coolant started slowly, I could not find any signs of loose hoses or exchanger leaking but she just didn't sound the same....... When I gave my riding lawn mower to a friend I delivered it and pushed the Liberty on the highway pulling the mower/trailer. On the return trip the low coolant light came on, checked it and the container was half full/empty and the overflow was half full/empty. First time to see any coolant on that overflow side. After it cooled down I pulled the cap off and :dizzy:

the big poof sound..............so what do you think? I am 98.9% sure its the head gasket but open to persuasion. Thanks!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2015 10:27 pm

Because you have already done the stage 1 intake elbow part, checking for an EGR cooler leak is pretty easy.
That aluminum plate that you installed over the port on the EGR valve, that led to the old intake elbow, remove that plate and if water comes out, your EGR cooler is leaking.

Lancer · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2015 12:21 pm

geordi wrote:

If you are not comfortable doing this amount of work, I can be available to take care of it for you. The head gasket is a solid 16 hour job according to the book labor values, I can usually do it in less than two days. For a first timer, plan on at least 4-5 days of downtime and 25 hours of work to allow for double-checking yourself. It is a bear of a job, truly.

The tab can be seen as described, and you will want to strongly consider the intake elbow kit and replacing the glow plugs and maybe the rockers at this point if there is any question about their condition. The amount of work is impressive, and the elbow kit offers many benefits - not the least of which is that it makes the reassembly suck a LOT less. The factory elbow is a hateful design.

Hi Geordi, I want to install the arp studs, and the independent mechanic I use recommended changing the head gasket as well. What's involved that its a 16 hour job?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2015 1:46 pm

The reason the book has it as a 16 hour job is that they first follow the full process (removing the entire front end of the vehicle) for the timing belt and inner timing cover... Then you have to remove:

Fuel rail
intake FCV
intake elbow and associated tie-points for the wiring and brake line and oil dipstick
fuel return block
fuel return hose from the injectors
electrical connections from the MAP and cam sensors and the fuel rail and injectors
injectors
CCV
NOW you are ready to remove the valve cover (15 bolts)
Rockers
water bottle / overflow bottle
Turbo heat shield
turbo oil feed line
turbo bracket
turbo oil drain line
turbo exhaust line
turbo airbox intake hose
turbo boost hose
turbo vacuum hose
turbo itself
exhaust manifold heat shield
exhaust EGR pipe clamp
exhaust EGR pipe (if you will be adding the Weeks Stage 2 plug to remove that pipe entirely)
exhaust manifold (IRC, 8 nuts and possibly break some of the studs)
thermostat housing
water hose from intake side
NOW you are ready to remove the head bolts (18 bolts) and finally you can remove the head.

Installation is the reverse of removal.

---------------------------------------------------

Now... Why would you ignore your independent mechanic and only install the ARP studs? The answer is simple: If you aren't currently having combustion gas leaking into the water system, then your head gasket currently has a good seal and should be left alone. You want to maintain this seal, not screw with it. More compression is better, that is why we install the ARP studs, and doing them one at a time means that the existing head gasket seal is maintained.

To know whether you have a currently leaking head gasket, the easiest way is to do this test on a COLD engine: First, open the radiator cap to ensure that any existing pressure is released. Water does expand as it heats, and a good sealed system can retain this pressure overnight. This is nothing to be concerned about. Some pressure in the water system is completely normal.

Once the cap has been opened and the water system has zero pressure, close it up and start the engine. Run it for about a minute, and then shut it down. Now open the cap again. Is there any pressure? There shouldn't be. Any pressure here can indicate that the 2500+ psi of combustion is managing to escape into the water system, and that would mean that you will want to replace the head gasket - or at least remove it and coat it with Permatex Copper Coat.

If you have had any "Low Coolant" warnings from the computer, and they came back after refilling the system, this can also indicate a head gasket issue IF THERE ARE NO OTHER LEAK POINTS. Don't forget that a leaking water pump also can cause that low coolant warning, and you may not be able to see any evidence because the water pump is hidden by the covers in normal operation.

Basically - if you are not having low coolant warnings right now, and your water bottle hasn't needed to be refilled... You probably DO NOT NEED to replace the head gasket. This is a laminated steel gasket. It won't go bad until (and unless) there are combustion and water leaks that cause it to rust. But the lack of good compression from the factory bolts can and has caused those leaks. Replacing with ARP studs before you have a leak will prevent one from ever happening.

weeks101 · **Joined:** Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 747

flash7210 wrote:

Are you absolutely sure that its the head gasket and not the EGR cooler?
An EGR cooler leak can display the same symptoms as a head gasket leak.
You may want to consider doing the Stage 1 and 2 EGR delete kits from Sasquatch Motorsports.
Saquatch Motorsports can also rent you the proper timing belt tools.

flash7210 wrote:

Because you have already done the stage 1 intake elbow part, checking for an EGR cooler leak is pretty easy.
That aluminum plate that you installed over the port on the EGR valve, that led to the old intake elbow, remove that plate and if water comes out, your EGR cooler is leaking.

geordi wrote:

If you have had any "Low Coolant" warnings from the computer, and they came back after refilling the system, this can also indicate a head gasket issue IF THERE ARE NO OTHER LEAK POINTS. Don't forget that a leaking water pump also can cause that low coolant warning, and you may not be able to see any evidence because the water pump is hidden by the covers in normal operation.

And as flash also mentioned above, the EGR cooler is known for leaking coolant into the EGR system. This means you can be losing coolant and not see any leaks or drops on the ground.

Lancer · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2015 6:11 pm

Thanks Geordi. There are no low coolant warnings, and when it was flushed and replaced a couple of weeks ago (by a main dealer), he assured me that all was normal. Our main dealers are used to CRDs - they were the preferred engine over here because of the fuel consumption of the 3.7, and are still preferred on the JK. The water bottle hasn't needed to be touched from one end of the year to the next!

Is the replacement something I can do myself, or should it be done by someone who knows what they are doing (and no, I'm not flying you over to England - much as I'd like to:)!)

geordi · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2015 7:42 pm

Lancer wrote:

Is the replacement something I can do myself, or should it be done by someone who knows what they are doing (and no, I'm not flying you over to England - much as I'd like to:)!)

Cheeky git. :mrgreen:

You may find that flights actually are quite cheap (and NO, I'm not ever flying Ryanair!) and certainly cheaper than the difficulty of this job when you factor the exchange rate into it!

You will still have to pull the valve cover, which means the timing belt labor, plus the entire list from above until the point where it says rockers. Once you remove the valve cover, the bolts will be staring you in the face.

Since you will be doing just the ARP studs without breaking the seal of the head gasket, you can pull ONE bolt at a time and install the stud pre-assembled and pre-lubed (no lube on the block threads!) with the nut flush to the top of the stud, and thread it down finger tight to the head. Then you can torque the nut all in one go, right to 130 lb-ft for the center bolts (bolts 1-10 on the chart in my research thread) and 120 lb-ft for the outer rows, bolts 11-18.

ARP has updated their application instructions and approved this method, versus torquing / loosening in stages, since the gasket is already compressed and the head is locked down by the rest of the bolts. You can go in any order you like, but I'd appreciate it if you followed my research thread request and recorded the release torques for the factory bolts as you take them out. That is where the numbering is helpful to keep things clear.

Lancer · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2015 1:22 am

Thanks Geordi, sorry to be a pain, but can you give me the link to your research thread?

geordi · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2015 12:29 pm

It is one of the sticky threads in this group, here is the link:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79984

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2015 12:45 pm

lancer just a reminder that I am on your side of the pond in late August and no I'm not volunteering to help with the job but if you need loan of my timing belt tools and/or delivery of belt(s) and ARP studs we can probably work something out. Email me if you want to chat about options.

Lancer · **Posted:** Wed May 20, 2015 3:39 pm

Thanks Geordi for the link, and thanks for the offer Jim, but I have the studs and the belt (in the shed) and can access the belt tools. I need to set a couple of days aside in the next couple of months when we are guaranteed dry weather:)

Rabert · **Posted:** Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:30 pm

Finally got it back together and is hummin :pepper:

Tanks Geordi for the direction. Weeks your kits are great. Two lessons learned: 1) Make sure inlets are tight on the Injectors where the fuel rail line connects 2) Make sure your battery is fully charged. Mine was low and, coupled with my leaking injectors, would not spin the motor/pump fast enough to pressurize the rail. Once charged, she hit off and purred. Hopefully I can make it another 135K miles. Thanks!

Head Gasket Size???

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