CRD Head Gasket - What's the Prognosis?

Rixram · **Posted:** Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:24 am

kafingerlos wrote:

Also looking for suggestions as to how one would go about cleaning the crud out of the intake manifold? I'm guessing similar to cleaning the MAP sensor? Maybe some electrical parts cleaner or something? I'm envisioning feeding a rag through the runners with a string/cord so I can pull it out the intake vent?

As you read this, please keep in mind that any photos anyone posts here do not show up in my browser due to network security requirements. I see the X's indicating a lot of photos, though.

If you have the intake off (assuming yes, from what is written above), why not flush it with diesel? It is cheap, and shouldn't cause any harm. Make sure not to immerse any electronics in it, just to be on the safe side.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:43 pm

kafingerlos wrote:

Also looking for suggestions as to how one would go about cleaning the crud out of the intake manifold? I'm guessing similar to cleaning the MAP sensor? Maybe some electrical parts cleaner or something? I'm envisioning feeding a rag through the runners with a string/cord so I can pull it out the intake vent?

I dunked mine in solvent, used various brushes, scrapers and then used several bottles of spray carb cleaner. Reoiled the Cam bearings afterwards.

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:34 am

Well, took the head into Western Engine Supply here in Denver for a pressure test; brought the intake with me as well to ask about cleaning.

The good news is that they did a very nice job on the intake. No more black crud.

The bad news is that the head failed the pressure test. They found crack(s) behind the valve seat on the #3 cylinder. On closer inspection it looks like the crack is into an exhaust passage which may explain some of the symptoms - No water in the oil, generally no obvious "drips" of coolant, and the tendency towards pressurizing the coolant system. It's behind the valve and they said the valves were seating/sealing well.

At the very least I know where I stand now. I suppose it's somewhat reassuring to have located a physical failure.

Parts orders to idparts.com and Sasquatchparts.com have been placed. Once those arrive I can start putting it back together. In the mean time I move on to cleaning the surface of the block and degreasing all the other bits and bobs.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:17 am

It is kinda hard to tell in the picture of the valves... Can you add a green arrow or something to point out this crack? I guess you are just getting the head replaced then?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:45 am

My head was also cracked around the exhaust valve/ports of cylinders 2,3, and 4

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:22 pm

Geordi - sorry about that, not easy to see in person and the scaled image doesn't help.

Here is a full-size photo with the crack more clearly noted. A new head ($ouch) has been ordered from idparts.com and should be here mid week.

I am curious as to what would result in a crack like that behind the valve? Obviously if it's operator error I want to avoid a repeat. :banghead:

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:28 pm

flash7210 wrote:

My head was also cracked around the exhaust valve/ports of cylinders 2,3, and 4

Very interesting ... I see in your signature that your head was replaced at 160K miles. That's pretty close to where I started seeing problems. 165K on it now.

Where are you at (mileage wise) now? Did you replace anything else while it was torn down? Any ideas what caused your failure?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:31 am

That is really a tiny crack... Any thoughts to having someone TIG weld across that to close it?

As for the head replacement, I love IDparts, but I would have ordered that from The VM Specialist. George would be a metric crapton less money, even with shipping and the exchange rate.

Dent · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:05 pm **Posts:** 275

What did they charge you to clean the intake/valvecover?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:21 pm

kafingerlos wrote:

flash7210 wrote:

My head was also cracked around the exhaust valve/ports of cylinders 2,3, and 4

Very interesting ... I see in your signature that your head was replaced at 160K miles. That's pretty close to where I started seeing problems. 165K on it now.

Where are you at (mileage wise) now? Did you replace anything else while it was torn down? Any ideas what caused your failure?

No clue what caused my head to crack.
Cracks like these are usually casued by:
1. heat
2. Stress
3. Manufacturer casting flaws
4. All the above

The replacment head I recieved from VM Specialist had a date stamp from 2007.
Hopefully any flaws had been corrected by then.

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:04 pm

Dent wrote:

What did they charge you to clean the intake/valvecover?

With 165K miles of soot and crud on it, and after my having spent several hours and two cans of carb cleaner on it; they quoted me $45 to clean the intake. After putting it in their machine and getting a better feel for the level of effort required they called me back and raised the price to $90.

So in the end $90, but for what they had to do I don't feel bad about it. I wasn't getting there anywhere fast on my own.

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:42 pm

geordi wrote:

That is really a tiny crack... Any thoughts to having someone TIG weld across that to close it?

Well Geordi - I did ask the folks at the machine shop for their opinion on if it were repairable, they thought no. Admittedly my own experience with repairs on aluminum heads has not been good (albeit no prior experience with diesels). So given that I didn't pursue the question further.

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:58 pm

Parts have all come in - Thank you idparts.com and Sasquatch! Looking like I'm setting up for a fun 4th of July weekend putting this thing back together.

One thing I'm am wondering - with the ARP studs, what is the current thinking on torque? I see the kit is actually two Audi 1.9L kits, so of course the instructions are for those engines. Geordi, I know you're out there, what's your current thinking on the topic?

I also see that the kit suggests hand tightening the studs into the block .... is that the right way, or should I be looking to tighten them in as well?

Any other tips on putting the thing back together? Does the FSM give me everything I need to know? Should I be looking for sealents, lubricants, anti-sieze, etc for gaskets, bolts, rockers, etc?

Thanks to and for all who've been supporting me in this venture.

Kenneth

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:19 am

Of course I find things 10min after I post questions - From Geordi on 2/13/14 - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524&start=240

"From a purely following-the-letter-of-the-instructions standpoint... The directions do say that you are supposed to re-torque new head studs. Thankfully, this is to be done during the installation, because getting back to them is a pain in the arse.

Now, this is the process I have followed, and why I don't really worry about re-torquing of new studs on the CRD. The general use of ARP studs are on extremely high power motors, where lifting the head due to cylinder pressure becomes a real possibility. The CRD isn't in this class at all.

I install the studs with ARP lube on the narrow threads, top and bottom of the washer, and the facing shoulders of the nut. Nothing on the wide threads that go into the block. Thread the nut onto the stud until it is flush with the top of the stud, washer in place. Thread the assembly down into the block until it contacts the head, washer in the recess.

This is where the process changes: Is this a one-by-one installation without removing the head, or has the head been removed / replacing the head gasket? (I am putting both processes here, since others may find this during a search)

For a one-by-one, go in any order that makes you happy, ONLY breaking loose the one bolt you are playing with, and putting the stud in before moving to the next. Install as described above. Torque the studs in the inner rows (directly bordering the cylinders) to 130 lb-ft AND NO MORE. This can be done in one step, but ONLY when the existing gasket has not been moved. The outer rows should be torqued to 120 or 125 lb-ft and NOT MORE. The threads of the stud should protrude from the top of the nut by approximately 1-1.5 threads when they are torqued. This is correct. Move on to the next bolt and repeat.

For a fresh head gasket, FOLLOW THE FACTORY MAP for tightening each stud. This will be a multi-step process, and it may be necessary to completely remove several of the studs and re-start them with the nut flush with the top of the stud so that the maximum thread grip in the block is achieved. The factory map alternates sides of the center rows to start with, then moves to the outside rows. Follow this, tightening each nut to 70 lb-ft. Once everything is at 70, go back and follow the pattern a second time. Remove them entirely one by one, re-set the nut to flush with the top of the stud, tighten the stud until it contacts the head, and torque the nut to 100 lb-ft. Finally, follow the pattern a third time and finish them off by just adding torque to 130 for the center rows and 120 or 125 for the outer rows.

That should be more than sufficient to compress the new gasket and keep the various fluids where they should be."

Edit: FSM reports the torque sequence to be - 3-2-1-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18
Head map is here: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79984

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:25 am

Yup, you found the directions. If you need the map of the head (which I usually write the numbers on the head itself in sharpie next to each bolt hole) then check the research sticky thread. It is post #1.

Dent · **Joined:** Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:05 pm **Posts:** 275

kafingerlos wrote:

Well, took the head into Western Engine Supply here in Denver for a pressure test; brought the intake with me as well to ask about cleaning.

The good news is that they did a very nice job on the intake. No more black crud.

Did you have it cleaned with the cams installed, or did you remove them?

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:37 pm

Dent wrote:

Did you have it cleaned with the cams installed, or did you remove them?

With them installed. I figure I can lube them before putting the valve cover back on.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:28 pm

When we cleaned up my intake, it completely ruined 5 gallons of solvent costing about $45.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:12 pm

Mike92104 wrote:

When we cleaned up my intake, it completely ruined 5 gallons of solvent costing about $45.

Why don't you guys use gasoline? Soak the cover in gasoline or fill it up and let it sit for few hours while working the gunk with a bottle brush. All washed oil will get back to the cam bearings first thing when starting the engine...

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:33 pm

I tell people to use diesel fuel. Nothing wrong at all with keeping the leftover fuel and putting it through your engine a couple gallons at a time. That is the same thing that would happen normally, except you wouldn't get the benefit of the filter to pull out the big chunks.

CRD Head Gasket - What's the Prognosis?

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