CRD quit, now just cranks but will not fire

rankom · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:19 pm

oh man this has been a headache for you , at this point only option is to remove top end and inspect damage as suggested . that why this engines are what i call it(SPECIAL ) most of people run away when they see CRD logo at back of tailgate , and there are guys like us ,we never give up ,we keep on wrenching ,thats just CRD thing nobody would understand , good luck buddy.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:25 pm

dhenderz wrote:

After posting the pictures I questioned myself on the root cause being timing. That shouldnt cause a piston or valve to contact the injector. Would it???

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If timing was far enough off, the pistons can come in contact with the valves. This is an interference type engine! Normally when this happens, it breaks the rocker arm or arms as they are by design the weak point and should break and protect the valves and / or pistons...
We have read of a very small few on this list that also broke a valve when they made contact. Unfortunately, looks like you may be among this group.
Only way to tell for sure at this point is to pull head and access damage and hope and pray that the head is salvageable. You will not know till you open it up.... :roll:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:33 pm

dhenderz wrote:

After posting the pictures I questioned myself on the root cause being timing. That shouldnt cause a piston or valve to contact the injector. Would it???

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I dont know.
It would seem to me that anything impacting the piston, causing the injector to be smashed, would create a lot of noise while cranking.
Have you checked the glow plugs? Are you still using original ceramic plugs?

Maybe you can shine a light down into the #3 injector hole and see if there is any damage to the top of the piston.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Yes. Still using original glow plugs.

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geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:10 pm

You'd think it would still be making noises, but no - any noise would have ended after the valve was embedded into the piston, so further cranking won't make the problem worse, it is already worse.

Simply buggering the timing won't cause the pistons to contact the injectors, the injectors don't move at all - You have obviously dropped a valve. Sorry about that.

If you want to discuss having me do the labor from this point, that is possible, but you will most likely need a replacement head. The bottom of the head is aluminum too, and the steel valve will have chewed it to mush after dropping onto the piston. The head cannot be rebuilt.

The fact that the engine is still rotating is a GOOD THING and you shouldn't need anything more than top end stuff. It won't be cheap, but it WILL be successful at getting your CRD back on the road. Most likely you will only need the one damaged injector replaced, and then the question is the #4 if that was damaged.

I would strongly suggest a set of ARP studs as well as a fresh head gasket since the head is coming off, but you could re-use that gasket and just spray it with copper-kote instead if it passes inspection once the head is off. This would also be a good time for the intake elbow and a fresh timing kit if your old one is more than a few thousand miles old. Original glow plugs also need to be gone, so time for the Etechno plugs.

Sorry you found such bad news, but at least you DID find the ultimate cause. Have you pulled the plugs? The #3 plug is most likely also snapped off, and this could very easily be the source of your trouble - the ceramic breaks off and jams a valve, which then is snapped off by the piston and trashes the top of the motor. You would not be the first to have this happen, which is why we tell EVERYONE to get rid of those ceramics, like yesterday.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:32 pm

Just curious, did you ever have a DTC code (check engine light) for a bad glow plug at any time before the engine quit? :?:

olypopper · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:40 pm

This thread should be made a sticky. This thread is a prime example of why people need to verify basics BEFORE spending mega bucks on parts they don't need.

It sucks how this one turned out but hey, live and learn.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

olypopper wrote:

This thread should be made a sticky. This thread is a prime example of why people need to verify basics BEFORE spending mega bucks on parts they don't need.

It sucks how this one turned out but hey, live and learn.

Not sure what your point is here. I did walk through the basics. And did follow the advice/diagnostic steps outlined by many on this forum. I sought the advice of Oregon Fuel and the nice guys at Green Diesel. While I agree there are lessons to be learned from my experience, I don't agree with you statement regarding verifying the basics before spending mega bucks. And to that end, the only 'wasted' money I've spent (so far) is for the CP3. I ended up where I am based on the step-by-step input from many. I am mad or trying to be critical, but I don't think your assessment of what has transpired is fair or accurate.

I've never really introduced myself or my background on this forum. I just joined when we purchased this Jeep for our daughter for her birthday. Kinds stinks that she only got to drive for a month before it died. I am a 'car guy', have been my whole life. Engineer by education, 18 years working as an engineer with one of the big 3 and the last 8 with a supplier. Problem is I've only ever worked on, rebuilt, etc. - gas engines. So this diesel has been a learning experience. And I greatly appreciate all the help and advice of the people on here. Thanks!!

Oh, PS - I have what apparently is a good used (128k miles) CP3 if anyone needs one!

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Well after some fighting I did finally get the #4 injector out. Not sure whether it matters, or whether it qualifies as 'good news', but #4 injector is fine. No broken/smashed tip.

I tried to look into the injector hole of #3, but its difficult. The only thing I can see that is different from #1 or #2 (cannot see into #4) is something flat across one side of the hole right where the injector pokes into the cylinder. Guessing I would say it is metal (shiny silver), makes a metallic noise when I poke at it with a long thin screwdriver and is approx. 1/16" into (covering the side) of the injector opening. Maybe the edge of a bent over valve?

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

WWDiesel wrote:

Just curious, did you ever have a DTC code (check engine light) for a bad glow plug at any time before the engine quit? :?:

No glow plug DTC before it quit. It was running great one minute, the next it was completely dead.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

geordi wrote:

You'd think it would still be making noises, but no - any noise would have ended after the valve was embedded into the piston, so further cranking won't make the problem worse, it is already worse.

Simply buggering the timing won't cause the pistons to contact the injectors, the injectors don't move at all - You have obviously dropped a valve. Sorry about that.

If you want to discuss having me do the labor from this point, that is possible, but you will most likely need a replacement head. The bottom of the head is aluminum too, and the steel valve will have chewed it to mush after dropping onto the piston. The head cannot be rebuilt.

The fact that the engine is still rotating is a GOOD THING and you shouldn't need anything more than top end stuff. It won't be cheap, but it WILL be successful at getting your CRD back on the road. Most likely you will only need the one damaged injector replaced, and then the question is the #4 if that was damaged.

I would strongly suggest a set of ARP studs as well as a fresh head gasket since the head is coming off, but you could re-use that gasket and just spray it with copper-kote instead if it passes inspection once the head is off. This would also be a good time for the intake elbow and a fresh timing kit if your old one is more than a few thousand miles old. Original glow plugs also need to be gone, so time for the Etechno plugs.

Sorry you found such bad news, but at least you DID find the ultimate cause. Have you pulled the plugs? The #3 plug is most likely also snapped off, and this could very easily be the source of your trouble - the ceramic breaks off and jams a valve, which then is snapped off by the piston and trashes the top of the motor. You would not be the first to have this happen, which is why we tell EVERYONE to get rid of those ceramics, like yesterday.

Geordi - thanks for your insight. As I posted just a minute ago, #4 injector is fine. That save s few $$.

By a fresh timing kit, I assume you mean a timing belt. Yes, that was replaced only 1k miles ago by the dealer - who it seems never adjusted the tensioner properly (see early post with photo).

What do you mean by 'intake elbow'?

Are these the glow plugs I should be installing?

http://www.idparts.com/etecno-7v-glow-p ... -3816.html

olypopper · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:51 pm

dhenderz wrote:

olypopper wrote:

This thread should be made a sticky. This thread is a prime example of why people need to verify basics BEFORE spending mega bucks on parts they don't need.

It sucks how this one turned out but hey, live and learn.

Not sure what your point is here. I did walk through the basics. And did follow the advice/diagnostic steps outlined by many on this forum. I sought the advice of Oregon Fuel and the nice guys at Green Diesel. While I agree there are lessons to be learned from my experience, I don't agree with you statement regarding verifying the basics before spending mega bucks. And to that end, the only 'wasted' money I've spent (so far) is for the CP3. I ended up where I am based on the step-by-step input from many. I am mad or trying to be critical, but I don't think your assessment of what has transpired is fair or accurate.

I've never really introduced myself or my background on this forum. I just joined when we purchased this Jeep for our daughter for her birthday. Kinds stinks that she only got to drive for a month before it died. I am a 'car guy', have been my whole life. Engineer by education, 18 years working as an engineer with one of the big 3 and the last 8 with a supplier. Problem is I've only ever worked on, rebuilt, etc. - gas engines. So this diesel has been a learning experience. And I greatly appreciate all the help and advice of the people on here. Thanks!!

Oh, PS - I have what apparently is a good used (128k miles) CP3 if anyone needs one!

My point is that no matter how much guessing is done, parts being thrown at an engine, if the base components are not good, the engine will not run.

You don't have to agree with me. You DO have to agree with physics or you are destined for a fair amount of failure.

This thread being made a sticky with emphasis on basics could save someone a lot of time and money in the future. Again, good luck.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:08 pm

dhenderz wrote:

Geordi - thanks for your insight. As I posted just a minute ago, #4 injector is fine. That save s few $$.

By a fresh timing kit, I assume you mean a timing belt. Yes, that was replaced only 1k miles ago by the dealer - who it seems never adjusted the tensioner properly (see early post with photo).

What do you mean by 'intake elbow'?

Are these the glow plugs I should be installing?

http://www.idparts.com/etecno-7v-glow-p ... -3816.html

Yup, those are the plugs. Buy a set of 4. This is the intake elbow kit: http://www.idparts.com/crd-intake-elbow ... -4803.html
You will find on the disassembly that you are developing a new language of swear words, after you work through the usual curses in all known languages... The factory elbow design is a hateful one. Rip it out and throw it away (probably quite violently after you've fought with it for hours) and put that in on the rebuild.

If the timing belt is only 1k old, then you probably are OK to just properly tension it... BUT are you absolutely certain that they replaced both idlers, the tensioner, and the water pump as well? I've seen where any or all of that has not been done by "quality dealerships" so I'm always double and triple checking them.

Let me know if you want any direct hands-on experience, I've been that deep in the motor more than I'd like to say - probably about 15 different engines. I can reasonably expect to have your CRD purring again in about 12-14 hours or so, so it would be 2 days, but not terrible ones. You sound like you have the ability to do it yourself too, it just would be a question of time.

jws84_02 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:23 pm

Don't feel bad op. That is olypoppers response to everything. Quite annoying really and doesn't help at all

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Making a shopping list. Am I missing anything critical? Is ID Parts the best price for the head? Man, that's expensive!

Part (qty) Price Total Source
glow plugs (4) $24.95 $99.80 http://www.idparts.com/etecno-7v-glow-p ... -3816.html

gasket set with bolts (1) $239.95 $239.95 http://www.idparts.com/cylinder-head-in ... -3203.html

cylinder head (1) $1,759.00 $1,759.00 http://www.idparts.com/complete-cylinde ... -3260.html

rocker arm & lifters (1) $369.95 $369.95 http://www.idparts.com/rocker-arm-lifte ... -3065.html

injector (1) $329.95 $329.95 http://www.shopinjectors.com/diesel/jee ... 435128.htm

EGR delete (stage 1 & 2) (1) $289.90 $289.90 https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/cart/

Total…. $3,088.55

rankom · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:40 pm

ok guys we all work here together not work against eachother , its easy to side tract with diagnostic on this motors , but its not end of the day , its always another day , happens to all of us , so its only a piece of iron and we can fix it one day rest is just fun ,,, i don't pull wrenches for living any more bit been on shop floor (heavy trucks) i have storys guys but that is part of the learning curve . again lets look on the bright side ,, cheers,

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:07 pm

dhenderz wrote:

Making a shopping list. Am I missing anything critical? Is ID Parts the best price for the head? Man, that's expensive!

Part (qty) Price Total Source
glow plugs (4) $24.95 $99.80 http://www.idparts.com/etecno-7v-glow-p ... -3816.html

gasket set with bolts (1) $239.95 $239.95 http://www.idparts.com/cylinder-head-in ... -3203.html

cylinder head (1) $1,759.00 $1,759.00 http://www.idparts.com/complete-cylinde ... -3260.html

rocker arm & lifters (1) $369.95 $369.95 http://www.idparts.com/rocker-arm-lifte ... -3065.html

injector (1) $329.95 $329.95 http://www.shopinjectors.com/diesel/jee ... 435128.htm

EGR delete (stage 1 & 2) (1) $289.90 $289.90 https://shop.sasquatchparts.com/cart/

Total…. $3,088.55

Well - a couple changes. You may find a better deal on the head at car-part.com which searches junkyards. Yes there is a bit of a risk there, but that will be the cheapest, and my personal opinion is that the risk of a warped head is minimal against the cost difference. The next cheapest option is The VM Specialist at vmspecialist.co.uk or .com - George is a nice guy too, and sources decent grade parts from the UK. You will need a different plug for the coolant bypass because it will be a different thread, but that is a minor issue. All the important things will line right up.

You are missing from your list the crush washers and O-rings for the injectors. You will need 4 of the sets from IDparts for about $32.
You don't specifically need the stage 2 kit, but since you are disassembling everything anyway, you can install the cap on the exhaust manifold without too much trouble. Just use a healthy amount of copper silicone or red silicone to seal it - it doesn't make a great seal otherwise.
You will probably want to replace the turbo oil drain gasket, the other end just pushes into the block with a rubber grommet. No need to replace that.
You will also need the two copper crush washers from the turbo oil feed banjo bolt. Whether you want to remove the turbo from the manifold or just the manifold from the head... Start drowning the bolts in PB blaster now. Hit them often and every time you can. Those studs are GARBAGE and you should figure on replacing at least a few of them, so buy some new ones from IDparts. The manifold and turbo studs are the same. If they have an option for grade 5 or 8, buy that.

You are also missing the ARP studs. Don't do this job and forget about those, the factory TTY bolts are GARBAGE and you WILL find yourself taking it apart again to solve a coolant leak / coolant pressurization issue later on down the road if you use the factory bolts. Either don't buy a gasket, or throw those bolts away immediately. Never use them.

The head gasket is laminated layers of steel - it shouldn't be a problem to reuse it, just coat both sides of it and both the engine deck and the bottom of the head in Copper-Kote spray from Permatex. Your local auto store will have that.

kmaylone · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:52 am

Glad you located the issues. My engine is pretty fresh...less than 7k miles. I will share with you there are many genuine people in the forum...and many that are "armchair experts". There is a Facebook group called "Jeep Liberty CRD". You will have the same comments and criticisms on the group, although the genuine people are priceless. I also have a similar background as you...adding a full ASE Master with Diesel endorsement.

There are many places to purchase parts from...I researched and purchased most from offshore European sources for 1/4-1/2 the price US. The cam followers for $9.00 each. I posted pricing and location of numerous parts you are needing on the CRD Group. The head gasket if I remember was $40 US and cam/head gasket $50. You can purchase the lifters individually also. If do ARP you are not going to require the "full" head set. You do not "need" a weeks kit...is $400 you can use elsewhere. Nothing wrong with the kit...makes servicing the vehicle way easier...no other benefit I can see. Many ways to delete EGR...I sell two caps and a block off plate for less than $45. Not trying to sell you stuff...information only.

Get it apart and see what you need. Then make decisions.

You will need a very good, and understanding machine shop with an excellent "hot tank". The inside of the intake system is going to be very "dirty". I am fiddling with the third full build. I keep dragging them home..normal people have no clue what to do with them. If you have questions .."geordi" does know his stuff.

So....guess the end of the the tale is that I wish you well....the vehicles are amazing when they work.....and not so much when they do not.

Regards.....Ken :JEEPIN:

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

I reviewed the timing belt & water pump replacement receipt from the previous owner. Looks like they did not change the timing belt tensioner or idler pulleys. I assume they should have - and that since they didn't now I should. Agree?

Also, has anyone tried the Gates 91009 cam gear holding tool that ID Parts sells? Was thinking I might make the investment to insure the job goes smoothly.

http://www.idparts.com/dual-cam-lock-tool-p-4758.html

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:13 pm

No question about it.

CRD quit, now just cranks but will not fire

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