CRD quit, now just cranks but will not fire

rankom · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:20 pm

you can make a home made tool , just like a VW tool , i made one from 2 pieces of metal 18 inch long and 2 bolts 10 mm on each arm and 1 bolt ,nut 8mm, this cheap tool works good , just pin cams tighten sprockets hand tighten. Remove timing pins hold your tool 10mm bolts cut off bolt heads so bolt can fit through sprocket holes , hold this tool with left hand torque wrench in right , torque to specs , reinstall timing pins verified timing ok , its just that easy

Efren_Hinojosa · **Joined:** Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:29 pm **Posts:** 42

I have one of these 91009, i personally would not trust it to hold cams in place while tightening or loosening. I rented the miller set, loved it.

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geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:05 pm

That red widget is not a secure device. I bought the very nice Metalnerd Cam Gear Holding Bar from IDparts b/c I knew I would be using it on many vehicles. It was a good investment for me, but you certainly could make one. The tool doesn't need to fit in the holes of the sprocket legs, it can just sit in the big holes between the spokes and will work perfectly fine.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

geordi wrote:

That red widget is not a secure device. I bought the very nice Metalnerd Cam Gear Holding Bar from IDparts b/c I knew I would be using it on many vehicles. It was a good investment for me, but you certainly could make one. The tool doesn't need to fit in the holes of the sprocket legs, it can just sit in the big holes between the spokes and will work perfectly fine.

Geordi -

Is this the one you are referring to -

http://www.idparts.com/metalnerd-common ... -2764.html

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:43 pm

dhenderz wrote:

geordi wrote:

That red widget is not a secure device. I bought the very nice Metalnerd Cam Gear Holding Bar from IDparts b/c I knew I would be using it on many vehicles. It was a good investment for me, but you certainly could make one. The tool doesn't need to fit in the holes of the sprocket legs, it can just sit in the big holes between the spokes and will work perfectly fine.

Geordi -

Is this the one you are referring to -

http://www.idparts.com/metalnerd-common ... -2764.html

That's not it. Geordi uses a red handled one that has a singular bar, and two nubs on the end of it, versus that "two bar" design.
If you end up getting a full timing set (which will probably be the cheapest way to get all of the parts) I would buy that old belt from you if you aren't going to keep it around. Like Geordi mentioned, I get into some of these, and they have replaced some of the parts, so my stack of timing kits I bought end up with missing pieces. I run the used, but almost new belts on my personal CRD's for 40-50k miles, at least that's the plan.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:58 pm

Nick - I don't know where you got that idea. Somebody else has a single bar, it isn't me.

Yes, that is exactly the tool I use for holding the cam pulleys. It is another tool that crosses over from the VW TDI timing world.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Trying to decide whether to go forward with the EGR delete of some sort, Weeks kit or other method. I understand this will throw the engine light unless I have the ECM reflashed. If it were my vehicle I would just live with the engine light being on. But this is my daughter's Jeep. I really don't like the idea of the engine light being on - and her not being able to know that something else (serious) might be happening/happened to bring the light on. This is her first car so her experience in knowing whether something is not running right or sounding right is limited.

So bottom line, if I go forward with an EGR delete, I will need to get the ECM reflashed. I know there is a thread on this forum dealing with this topic, but honestly of all the engine work I've ever done, ECM reflashing is a new one. And the thought of spending another $500 to have it done just doesn't sit well considering all the other money I will be pouring into this engine. How difficult/tricky is reflashing the ECM with a 'stock' tune, minus the EGR issue?

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:00 pm

geordi wrote:

Nick - I don't know where you got that idea. Somebody else has a single bar, it isn't me.

Yes, that is exactly the tool I use for holding the cam pulleys. It is another tool that crosses over from the VW TDI timing world.

dangit, I guess I had it all wrong since way back when I first asked you which one you use :5SHOTS:

oh well, maybe I can answer his next question right

You can do the do it yourself tune for about $15, and being that you are an engineer, I know you can handle the minor computer stuff to accomplish it. Downloading the .exe file and installing the drivers is about as hard as it gets. Just have to purchase the cable. But, the GDE tune will pay for itself in something like 30k miles, and then it pays dividends from there on out...
Then again, you should upgrade the torque converter with the tune $$, so the real payoff may be further down the road. The cleaner running engine, and extra power is really nice though.

rankom · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:40 pm

ok i think you should first , pull this motor out and fix it internally and then you can play with tunes and etc

kmaylone · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:32 pm

I agree about disassembly and locating the issues...go from there.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:06 am

I disagree about pulling the motor to fix this. The rotating mass is still rotating smoothly, and unless your daughter is not delivering a full report about how it shut down, valve dropping tends to be one of two modes of failure: Very sudden with maybe a bang or two (maybe) and then silence... Or rocks in a paint can, in a paint shaker. Loud, violent, end-of-the-world cataclysmic. It is hard to mistake one for the other, so I tend to think that you have the first example.

As such, chances are that the overall damage to the top of the piston will be minimal (it IS hardened steel) while the bottom of the head probably has a few really good divots in it from the 2 revolutions or so that the piston made after the valve dropped.

It won't hurt to just tear everything down right now to the pistons, since you have to do that anyway, and decide at that point "if" the block needs to come out. If it does - you haven't lost any labor as it would need to be torn down anyway for an easier pull. If not... Then you haven't wasted the energy pulling it.

I still tend to think that right now, you only need everything north of the head gasket to be worked on, starting with a replacement head. What your pistons are under at the moment is a 38 lb block of scrap aluminum. That needs to come out first to see what the damage actually was. I think I speak for everyone when I say we would all like to see some detailed pictures of this thing in pieces. We can help you much more at that point.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:08 am

I didn't see the smashed piston, rings, and the necessary gaskets for the bottom end to remove the piston. Getting a "new" piston of matching weight may be a problem. I have started collecting ones from ebay as the new style is of a different weight. If the new ones are heavier, then you can probably shave it down to match, if it's lighter then it's useless. Really expensive to buy new one just to find out it might not work...

And remember to get two sets of rod bolts, as you'll probably want to pull a second piston to match weights. Also, when I finally do use a used piston, I'm going to install a new sleeve, which will hopefully work fine, as I'm afraid a used sleeve that was in operation with a different piston, might be misshapen...

This may sound terribly expensive, but if you can pick up one used piston, and a new sleeve. It shouldn't be more than $200. Maybe another $100 or so for gaskets and bolts. You'll want to pull the engine for this.

There is also debate over rings, where the new rings you can buy, may not fit the old pistons... There's a thread where I was trying to hash this out, but I've had other distractions lately. It gets ugly when you get into the bottom end. I don't see how that piston could have survived this.

I hope this helps you bail out, or commit before you spend a fortune on top end parts just to discover that you don't want to pioneer (well, almost) the piston and ring nightmare. Good luck

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:14 am

Mountainman wrote:

...Lots of stuff about a piston and ring nightmare. Good luck

Huh? Who said anything about needing a piston and rings and rods? The bottom end on his seems to be rotating just fine, I don't think there is an issue there, unless I missed a post somewhere?

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:18 am

Well, looks like Geordi and I were typing away at the same time. I certainly hope that he is right. You might be able to dremel the top of that piston where the valve recesses are if they are "modified". That's if it didn't score up the cylinder walls. ok, I'll shut up with the bad news. Just don't buy a $2k head until you know that you want to fix the dang thing. Oh, and I second the junkyard head idea, but get it milled flat to spec of smoothness and both combustion and water jackets pressure tested by a good machine shop that works on lots of diesel aluminum heads. I do the same for the VM specialist heads. They don't come milled flat to spec either. The shop I use only charges $100 for the testing and milling.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:20 am

geordi wrote:

Mountainman wrote:

...Lots of stuff about a piston and ring nightmare. Good luck

Huh? Who said anything about needing a piston and rings and rods? The bottom end on his seems to be rotating just fine, I don't think there is an issue there, unless I missed a post somewhere?

You know better than I on this Geordi, but the ones I've heard of (and viewed pictures of) had a chewed up piston.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:26 am

Prepping the head is certainly a good idea, but you may need to inform the head shop (heh) that they can't take more than a few thousands off the bottom, there really isn't much there to play with. In most cases I've seen though, the head will be decently in-spec unless the engine was severely overheated or abused, so it shouldn't need much beyond a good cleaning and go-over.

Any decent specialist should be able to vacuum test each of the valves too, and polish the valve seats if there is an issue found.

As far as the top of the piston, dremeling off any burrs from any impact craters should be plenty, but I don't think the top of the piston will have taken much more than some scoring. An engine that had a significant amount of ether dumped into it caused it to drop THREE valves in one cylinder, and that piston crown doesn't look bad at all, surprisingly. I had to dig the valves out of it, but they were more jammed with bits of aluminum than they were actually embedded in the piston crown.

The bottom of that head is a little worse for wear though. You can see pictures of that in a thread called "Valve, the other other white meat" floating around here somewhere. That block is still waiting for rehab.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:05 am

Good to hear, I've got one that probably ate a plug. But I'll this poor thread alone, I've probably caused enough nightmares already :goink:

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Thanks for the all in the info guys. My next step will definitely be to tear the engine down to the point of pulling the head. I have decided to not tear into this weekend. My shop is not heated and here in SE MI its predicted to be rather cold. Next weekend is looking like upper 30s to 40. Much better weather to deal with this tear down. Pics and updates to come in about 10days. I haven't ordered any parts yet, clearly makes sense to wait until I see exactly what I am dealing with. Here's hoping....

On another good news/bad news topic, I had Jack at Northern Diesel test the other 3 injectors. Great guy by the way, very helpful. They all tested out great with no issues. But after trying to order the rebuilt injector from shopinjectors.com to replace the smashed #3, I learned they are not available. I went right to the source and called Bostech down in SC. Nice guys, helpful. But bottom line is they just don't have any injectors. He said they just can't seem to get enough good cores back to rebuild to make it work. So they are going to remove the Jeep injectors from their web site. So a call back to Jack at Northern where I learned he found the exact same issue - no rebuilds to be found. But he could get a brand new one from Bosch for $435. Since Oregon wants $380 for a rebuilt injector, I said do it and it should be here by Fri.

joe_ · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:14 pm

Based on GreenDieselEngineering's comments in this thread [ viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83871 ], you may want to order the 5v Bosch glow plugs instead of the 7v Etechnos. To be honest I don't have any experience with the different types of plugs (I suspect mine might still have the ceramics), I'm just going off what I've read so you may want to wait for others' input. But based off that thread, I'd be reluctant to use the Etechnos.

Keep in mind that switching to the 5v plugs will require reprogramming the PCM; either by the dealer, or with an aftermarket tune.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:57 pm

The performance of the 5v is equally poor as the 7v, the difference against the original ceramic only plugs is that the metal insulates the plug and the heat transfer is poorer. Voltage doesn't change this, it is a design issue. The Etechno plugs will perform adequately, but you can't just spin the key to start in one move after inserting it. You need to take a breath and count to 3 and THEN start.

CRD quit, now just cranks but will not fire

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