Aftermarket oil filter

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:54 pm

0311_DoC wrote:

ok So if I understand this correctly, you can keep the oil filter for up to 25K even if you change the oil, lets say at 7500 or 10K? So you just put it back on after the oil change?

Well, if you are running Amsoil 5W-40 Euro you could I suppose but why not just run the oil out to say 15k (suggested Severe duty mileage change interval) and then change both oil & filter? If not running Amsoil, then I would change the filter at whatever interval you normally do. Amsoil doesn't warranty the filter if used w/ other brands of oil.

"If used in conjunction with AMSOIL Motor Oil that is being changed at intervals less than 25,000 miles, the EaO Filter should be changed at the same time. AMSOIL EaO Filters are not guaranteed for 25,000 miles when used with any oil other than AMSOIL Motor Oil and should be changed according to vehicle OEM recommendations."

Thanks for the question.

0311_DoC · **Posted:** Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:00 pm

well im currently running the Euro 5W 40 with the EA filter. I guess I was just a lil confused on your explanation.

Thanks for the info

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

0311_DoC wrote:

ok So if I understand this correctly, you can keep the oil filter for up to 25K even if you change the oil, lets say at 7500 or 10K? So you just put it back on after the oil change?

I don't nessicarily buy into all that high mileage oil change stuff, I don't go over 6.5k miles between changes on the CRD no matter what someone tells me or whatever advertisements some company may make

I'd rather be safe than stupid against logic

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:24 am

Hero wrote:

0311_DoC wrote:

ok So if I understand this correctly, you can keep the oil filter for up to 25K even if you change the oil, lets say at 7500 or 10K? So you just put it back on after the oil change?

I don't nessicarily buy into all that high mileage oil change stuff, I don't go over 6.5k miles between changes on the CRD no matter what someone tells me or whatever advertisements some company may make

I'd rather be safe than stupid against logic

Not sure what you mean by "I'd rather be safe then stupid against logic" but I don't change oil by miles, I use oil testing to determine what I should as a drain point. My Magnum by testing could easy do 10k mile oil & filter changes or 20k miles with oil filter change and top off lost oil from the filter change. The CRD easy makes 10k with oil & filter change with Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic 5w-40 diesel oil by testing method and that is what I am using because of the 70k mile warranty of engine.

Ripster · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:45 am

Long drain intervals are here. TDI every 10,000 with 250,000 on the clock and about 1 pint in usage over the
10,000 miles. 15,000 on my gasser before a change, can go longer easily. The CRD I will take to 10,000 and
change, could go longer, that interval works for me and I stay under the tolerances of both the oil and the
owners manual. I have yet to add any to my CRD at 2800 miles.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:44 am

Auto mfg's are suggesting longer times between oil changes over what they once preached and now they are looking into even longer oil change / fluid change intervals. The lubrication technology is there to support these extended change intervals and the engine techology has helped to keep oil cleaner longer.

My suggestion has always been to change your oil at whatever interval you are comfortable with regardless of what oil you run. I also am trying to educate people that Amsoil is the most advanced oil on the market. Amsoil is the originator of SPI rated full synthetic motor oils and they have also introduced other full synthetic lubes to market well in advance of the competition. They have tested, by independant labs and internally, their oil out beyond 25,000 miles and it was still better than competitors oil fresh out of the bottle. IF you could run a by-pass filtration system on your vehicle you could see even longer service intervals.

Regardless of what oil you run, service intervals over 3,000-5,000 miles are normal these days and I am hoping more people will realize they can extend their intervals even longer if they would just change their way of thinking. BTW, Amsoil has never been challenged on the claims they make about their oils, lubes or filters. Others Have been challenged and told by the FTC to cease their advertising claims or prove their claims, they stopped their advertising instead.

PLMK if you have any questions about Amsoil products. Challenge me.
Thanks, John

Davesub · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:00 pm

JJsKJ wrote:

My suggestion has always been to change your oil at whatever interval you are comfortable with regardless of what oil you run. I also am trying to educate people that Amsoil is the most advanced oil on the market. Amsoil is the originator of SPI rated full synthetic motor oils and they have also introduced other full synthetic lubes to market well in advance of the competition. They have tested, by independant labs and internally, their oil out beyond 25,000 miles and it was still better than competitors oil fresh out of the bottle. IF you could run a by-pass filtration system on your vehicle you could see even longer service intervals.
Thanks, John

John,
Lets talk about this bypass filter. Now I agree that Amsoil filters will catch 98.5% of the 15 micron particles in my oil. I agree that is better than most other filters on the market. But how about telling us what your not telling us. Its the particles LESS THAN 15 microns that are really doing the damage to our engines. The reason most auto companies tell us to drain oil when we do is they know the particles in the 5-15 Micron range are doing the most damage to the engine. Imagine all these small particles, and the smaller the particle the more there are, flowing right through the filter, thats what is really going on. The full flow filters cant catch them and thats why we dump the oil regardless of the amount of ZDDP (Additive package) left in our oil. On my Powerstroke Diesel I run a bypass filter and my ISO cleanliness code is about 12/9 a big jump from the 22/10 I use to run, verified by my Parker PLC-3000 optical particle counter.

My challenge to you:
-Stop with the salesmen talk. Anyone can cut and paste data from Amsoils website here.
-Offer solutions and products for our problems. You talk about Bypass filters. Do they offer one for the CRD? Have you tested it? What is the ISO cleanliness before and after?
-Explain to our readers about oil testing. What to look for when the sample comes back. Explain what the additive package is and why you think Amsoil's is better. Offer some data from other companies oil and show us why we should buy from you.

For the most part I usually dont like salesmen. They seem to be pretty good at spinning the details they want you to know, not what you actually need to know. I believe if a good salesmen offers good facts without spinning them he will usually get all the business he can handle.

Dave

cerich · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:27 pm

JJsKJ wrote:

Auto mfg's are suggesting longer times between oil changes over what they once preached and now they are looking into even longer oil change / fluid change intervals. The lubrication technology is there to support these extended change intervals and the engine techology has helped to keep oil cleaner longer.

My suggestion has always been to change your oil at whatever interval you are comfortable with regardless of what oil you run. I also am trying to educate people that Amsoil is the most advanced oil on the market. Amsoil is the originator of SPI rated full synthetic motor oils and they have also introduced other full synthetic lubes to market well in advance of the competition. They have tested, by independant labs and internally, their oil out beyond 25,000 miles and it was still better than competitors oil fresh out of the bottle. IF you could run a by-pass filtration system on your vehicle you could see even longer service intervals.

Regardless of what oil you run, service intervals over 3,000-5,000 miles are normal these days and I am hoping more people will realize they can extend their intervals even longer if they would just change their way of thinking. BTW, Amsoil has never been challenged on the claims they make about their oils, lubes or filters. Others Have been challenged and told by the FTC to cease their advertising claims or prove their claims, they stopped their advertising instead.

PLMK if you have any questions about Amsoil products. Challenge me.
Thanks, John

the problem I have with Amsoil is the distribution and name sounds like Amway...

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:44 pm

JJsKJ wrote:

0311_DoC wrote:

ok So if I understand this correctly, you can keep the oil filter for up to 25K even if you change the oil, lets say at 7500 or 10K? So you just put it back on after the oil change?

Well, if you are running Amsoil 5W-40 Euro you could I suppose but why not just run the oil out to say 15k (suggested Severe duty mileage change interval) and then change both oil & filter? If not running Amsoil, then I would change the filter at whatever interval you normally do. Amsoil doesn't warranty the filter if used w/ other brands of oil.

"If used in conjunction with AMSOIL Motor Oil that is being changed at intervals less than 25,000 miles, the EaO Filter should be changed at the same time. AMSOIL EaO Filters are not guaranteed for 25,000 miles when used with any oil other than AMSOIL Motor Oil and should be changed according to vehicle OEM recommendations."

Thanks for the question.

I have always (when using Amsoil for extended use) spun on a new filter every 5,000 miles and then topped off with new Amsoil Series 3000 for diesel (even in gas vehicles). I do that twice and on the third time I put new oil and filter on. That puts me at 20,000 miles with three new filters and about 3 quarts of topped fresh oil. Pretty economical and keeps the oil running thru a relatively new filter (in case of contamination from water ect.)

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:18 pm

Davesub wrote:

John,
Lets talk about this bypass filter. Now I agree that Amsoil filters will catch 98.5% of the 15 micron particles in my oil. I agree that is better than most other filters on the market. But how about telling us what your not telling us. Its the particles LESS THAN 15 microns that are really doing the damage to our engines. The reason most auto companies tell us to drain oil when we do is they know the particles in the 5-15 Micron range are doing the most damage to the engine. Imagine all these small particles, and the smaller the particle the more there are, flowing right through the filter, thats what is really going on. The full flow filters cant catch them and thats why we dump the oil regardless of the amount of ZDDP (Additive package) left in our oil. On my Powerstroke Diesel I run a bypass filter and my ISO cleanliness code is about 12/9 a big jump from the 22/10 I use to run, verified by my Parker PLC-3000 optical particle counter.

My challenge to you:
-Stop with the salesmen talk. Anyone can cut and paste data from Amsoils website here.
-Offer solutions and products for our problems. You talk about Bypass filters. Do they offer one for the CRD? Have you tested it? What is the ISO cleanliness before and after?
-Explain to our readers about oil testing. What to look for when the sample comes back. Explain what the additive package is and why you think Amsoil's is better. Offer some data from other companies oil and show us why we should buy from you.

For the most part I usually dont like salesmen. They seem to be pretty good at spinning the details they want you to know, not what you actually need to know. I believe if a good salesmen offers good facts without spinning them he will usually get all the business he can handle.

Dave

Wow! Best challenge so far and very technically involved. I am doing some research on these questions and I will get back with what I find out. I don't claim to be a know-it-all and I will admit that I am on the bottom side of a learning curve. Abviously you are familiar w/ this topic, can I ask how you know to ask these questions?

As for the by-pass filtration system for a CRD, I do not know of one spcifically for the CRD right now. Amsoil has a few different systems available and I am sure one could fit the CRD. If I had a CRD I would be figuring out which one would work and be telling everyone about it.
Thanks for the challenge. I will try my best to come up with all the info you are looking for.
John

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:13 pm

If you want to get super informed about oils/tests/test results/reading test results...you can go to www.bobistheoilguy.com. The porblem is most of us have plenty of other things to do than perform an intensive research project on a single Liberty CRD.

Point is that filtration is only one aspect of oil life and protection...sheer strength...volitility...molecular structure...ect ect ect are involved. Amsoil has been in the synthetic oil business since it's inception and that is what they know best. As for filtering down to 5-15 microns...that is about the best you can get with a single unit spin on oil filter. If you would rather use a filter that allows 25-40 microns particles to flow thru, that is probably fine for everyday normal use. My reasoning is to use the best product I can find that has a proven "track" record and leave the research to the lab techs. If you had a filter that filtered much smaller than 5 microns...the oil would stop flowing at an acceptable rate. You would have to change the filter so often it would not be feasible. As for 5-15 micron particles doing "the most damage" to the internals, I doubt that is so. Oil dilution and breakdown would worry me more than particles that size.

Zonie · **Posted:** Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:25 pm

Quote:

My challenge to you:
-Stop with the salesmen talk. Anyone can cut and paste data from Amsoils website here.
-Offer solutions and products for our problems. You talk about Bypass filters. Do they offer one for the CRD? Have you tested it? What is the ISO cleanliness before and after?
-Explain to our readers about oil testing. What to look for when the sample comes back. Explain what the additive package is and why you think Amsoil's is better. Offer some data from other companies oil and show us why we should buy from you.

Great questions! I'd love to know the answers!

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:01 am

Questions about what to look for if you send your oil samples in for testing:

Results would be an array of different values on different elements such as:

Silicon...sand or dirt usually thru air intake system

Aluminum...comes from wear of Thrust Washers, Bearing Surfaces, Piston Skirts

Iron...Liners, Cam and Crank-Shafts, Valve Train, Timing Gears

Chromium...Piston Rings usually caused by dirt

Copper/Tin...Bearings, Bushings, Valve Guides

Boron, Magnesium, Calcium. Barium, Phosphorous, Zinc...byproducts of Oil Additive packages

Each of the above elements and others have acceptable levels such as 10-30ppm and the oil analysis gives you the values to determine your oils properties after use

You will also get a Viscosity Factor that will tell you a few things. If it is:

Too Thin your oil has probably been diluted or has been reduced by Shearing (more on that later)

Too Thick and your oil is probably contaminated by something like anti-freeze which forms a sludge(Sodium would be the marker element for this diagnosis)...or...oxidation caused by old oil or oil that has run too hot will also cause the oil to sludge up.

Amsoil and most other synthetics are resistant to high levels of Shearing. Dino Oils try to fight the effects of shearing (not prevent) by using additives that leave a "Barrier" on the surface that the oil has been forced out or off of by pressure. The additives are long molecules that add Vicsosity to Dino Oils...such as 10W30. The base is 10wt and additives push up the top number to 30wt. Problem is that as the oil additives (specifically to add viscosity ) break down and the largest oil wt # decreases and you lose protection. Synthetic Oils do not normally use additives ( to improve viscosity ) and resist Shearing (almost nil). This is because Synthetic Oils are formulated to specific weights ( viscosities ) without using additives to create Barriers. The other change is that many Dino Oils are having to use fewer Viscosity Improvers because car companies complain that they affect the effectiveness of Cats and such. This is not to say that other oil additives are not beneficial such as detergents ect...just that oil additives to change oil wt #s can and do degradate with use caused by shearing.

So sending in oil samples can (after you allow for some breakin miles where the metal readings might naturally be higher) diagnose a future or current problem if you know what to look for.

This is why I use Amsoil Series 3000 Diesel Synthetic...protects against high heat breakdown, high acid levels and excessive soot from EGR Diesels. It also has a high Flash Point (where it starts to burn) and Low Pour Point so it flows at low temperatures.

Hero · **Joined:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:32 pm **Posts:** 122

oldnavy wrote:

Hero wrote:

0311_DoC wrote:

ok So if I understand this correctly, you can keep the oil filter for up to 25K even if you change the oil, lets say at 7500 or 10K? So you just put it back on after the oil change?

I don't nessicarily buy into all that high mileage oil change stuff, I don't go over 6.5k miles between changes on the CRD no matter what someone tells me or whatever advertisements some company may make

I'd rather be safe than stupid against logic

Not sure what you mean by "I'd rather be safe then stupid against logic"

Well from being a professional mechanic in the past, the logic is that nothing will make your engine perform better while protecting it, etc than fresh oil and filters. I understand the concept behind the extended mile oils and whatnot, still though I have a lot of money invested in my vehicle and would leave nothing to chance to insure its highest level of performance and protection

Davesub · **Posted:** Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:55 am

DarbyWalters wrote:

If you want to get super informed about oils/tests/test results/reading test results...you can go to www.bobistheoilguy.com. The porblem is most of us have plenty of other things to do than perform an intensive research project on a single Liberty CRD.

Point is that filtration is only one aspect of oil life and protection...sheer strength...volitility...molecular structure...ect ect ect are involved. Amsoil has been in the synthetic oil business since it's inception and that is what they know best. As for filtering down to 5-15 microns...that is about the best you can get with a single unit spin on oil filter. If you would rather use a filter that allows 25-40 microns particles to flow thru, that is probably fine for everyday normal use. My reasoning is to use the best product I can find that has a proven "track" record and leave the research to the lab techs. If you had a filter that filtered much smaller than 5 microns...the oil would stop flowing at an acceptable rate. You would have to change the filter so often it would not be feasible. As for 5-15 micron particles doing "the most damage" to the internals, I doubt that is so. Oil dilution and breakdown would worry me more than particles that size.

Spin on filters do not filter better than 15 micorns for the reason you stated. They would clog up too quick and not flow at all. You will not find a spin on out there that can, they dont make them. You can always check the rating of the filter you want to by by calling the company and asking them the "Beta rating" of their filter, you may need to call the tech dept cause the front desk will have no clue what you are talking about. If a filter clogs up most have internal bypass valves that open to prevent your engine from no oil pressure. Only bypass filters can filter down to the 1-3 micron range. They only take a small amount of oil and filter it, not the entire oil pump discharge amount. Read Amsoils website or www.oilguard.com for info on bypass filters. Over the road truckers have been using bypass filters along time with the same oil for 10's of thousands of miles. Shear almost never happins in synthetic oil due to there molecule structure and hopefully your rings in a new CRD are not leaking by causing excess fuel oil dilution. My latest oil report for my 1997 Powerstroke diesel has no detectable levels of fuel, water, or antfreeze in the oil with 90k miles on it.

Davesub · **Posted:** Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:14 am

JJsKJ wrote:

Davesub wrote:

John,
Lets talk about this bypass filter. Now I agree that Amsoil filters will catch 98.5% of the 15 micron particles in my oil. I agree that is better than most other filters on the market. But how about telling us what your not telling us. Its the particles LESS THAN 15 microns that are really doing the damage to our engines. The reason most auto companies tell us to drain oil when we do is they know the particles in the 5-15 Micron range are doing the most damage to the engine. Imagine all these small particles, and the smaller the particle the more there are, flowing right through the filter, thats what is really going on. The full flow filters cant catch them and thats why we dump the oil regardless of the amount of ZDDP (Additive package) left in our oil. On my Powerstroke Diesel I run a bypass filter and my ISO cleanliness code is about 12/9 a big jump from the 22/10 I use to run, verified by my Parker PLC-3000 optical particle counter.

My challenge to you:
-Stop with the salesmen talk. Anyone can cut and paste data from Amsoils website here.
-Offer solutions and products for our problems. You talk about Bypass filters. Do they offer one for the CRD? Have you tested it? What is the ISO cleanliness before and after?
-Explain to our readers about oil testing. What to look for when the sample comes back. Explain what the additive package is and why you think Amsoil's is better. Offer some data from other companies oil and show us why we should buy from you.

For the most part I usually dont like salesmen. They seem to be pretty good at spinning the details they want you to know, not what you actually need to know. I believe if a good salesmen offers good facts without spinning them he will usually get all the business he can handle.

Dave

Wow! Best challenge so far and very technically involved. I am doing some research on these questions and I will get back with what I find out. I don't claim to be a know-it-all and I will admit that I am on the bottom side of a learning curve. Abviously you are familiar w/ this topic, can I ask how you know to ask these questions?

As for the by-pass filtration system for a CRD, I do not know of one spcifically for the CRD right now. Amsoil has a few different systems available and I am sure one could fit the CRD. If I had a CRD I would be figuring out which one would work and be telling everyone about it.
Thanks for the challenge. I will try my best to come up with all the info you are looking for.
John

John,
Im interested to see what bypass filter setup Amsoil has for the CRD. If its a clean easy install i'll be the first one to get one from you. As far as oil background I am currently in the US Navy and run a Condition Based Maintence program for Submarines. We use all kinds of technology such as Oil Analysis, Infared, Vibration Analysis, Ultrasonic Analysis to help predict future breakdowns. On a submarine you cant run down to Napa Auto when your on station! Oil analyis is my main area and i've attended training by www.noria.com Its really amazing the amount of information you can learn by taking their Oil Analysis training. Maybe you can get Amsoil to foot the bill for ya!
Dave

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:41 am

Amsoils Bypass Filter system is generic...If you can find a location for the bypass fliter unit, you can mount a bypass filter ( and relocate your primary filter also ). Problem for the Liberty CRD is room. There really is not much room in the engine bay or uniframe area to mount the hardware. Hard for most vehicles ( passenger ) to find a suitable location. The best bet for the Liberty would be something near the stock filter under the vehicle...that would still be protected by the uniframe or even skid plates.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:21 am

This the new Mobil 1 Synthetic 5w-40 for diesels with particulate traps and will be the standard for '07 model D/C diesel cars & trucks and should be showing up at the dealers for '07 model diesels.

Product Description:

Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is an advanced performance synthetic engine oil designed to provide exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is engineered to help prolong the life and maintain the efficiency of Car Emission Reduction Systems in both diesel and gasoline powered automobiles that require an oil that is approved against Daimler Chrysler's MB 229.51 specification.

Features and Benefits:

Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of high performance components formulated to be fully compatible with the latest Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF's) and Gasoline Catalytic Converters (CAT's). Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 has been designed to deliver outstanding performance and protection in conjunction with improved fuel economy. Key features and benefits include:

Features:

Advantages and Potential Benefits:

Low Ash Content Helps to reduce particulate build up in Diesel Particulate Filters
Low Sulphur and Phosphorous content Helps to reduce poisoning of Gasoline Catalytic Converters
Active cleaning agents Reduces deposits and sludge build-up to enable long and clean engine life
Outstanding thermal and oxidation stability Reduces oil ageing allowing extended drain interval protection
Low oil consumption Less hydrocarbon pollution
Enhanced frictional properties Greater fuel economy
Excellent low temperature capabilities Quick cold weather starting and ultra fast protection
Extended engine and electrical system life

Applications:

Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is approved against Daimler Chrysler MB 229.51.

It is not recommended for 2-Cycle or aviation engines, unless specifically approved by the manufacturer.

Specifications and Approvals :

Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-30 has the following builder approvals: (edit: for gasser's)

Daimler Chrysler MB 229.51

Typical Properties:

Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40

SAE Grade 5W-40
Viscosity, ASTM D 445
cSt @ 40ºC 81.1
cSt @ 100ºC 13.35
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 167
Sulphated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 0.63
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC, ASTM D4683 3,8
Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -39
Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 236
Density @ 15ºC, kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.85

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:05 pm

Info gained through Amsoil technical services:
ByPass efficiency is better than the lowest ISO cleanliness code size rating. It is 98.7% efficient at 2 microns (commonly referred to as its “Absolute” efficiency.). The smallest ISO level is 4 microns.

ZDDP levels in most oils other than the XL Series are in excess of 1200 ppm. I am looking into the exact levels for the whole line of Amsoil oils.

BTW, the XL series is Amsoils 7500 mile service interval oil. AMSOIL XL Oils provide 7,500-mile/six-month drain intervals or longer where stated by vehicle manufacturers or indicated by oil life monitoring systems.

Oh and BTW, I love to copy & paste! :wink:

John

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