CRD quit, now just cranks but will not fire

kmaylone · **Posted:** Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:53 am

I am sure you have the engine on a stand. when you are rotating the internals, especially with the cylinders down, use caution. The sleeves could come loose. There is nothing holding them in place except the corrosion build up in the coolant chamber, the seals, and a small press fit portion.

Experience from a different build. :2cents:

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Mountainman wrote:

dhenderz wrote:

Lots of interesting info, thanks guys. I will have to see if I can get ahold of IDParts first thing this AM before they ship out my box of parts. I ordered a 1hole (matched factory) and will try to get that switched to a 2hole.

I see mention of a preferred ARP torque sequence and ultimate torque spec. What is it?

I was told that one of the stamps on the piston is the weight, so it might be interesting to note your replacement one vs the originals. Probably within spec.

Just follow the factory sequence. I go with about 4 rounds of torquing until I get to the 120/130 that Geordi mentioned. I think the factory procedure calls for 3 rounds, but I split it up for a slower ramp up in torque, as I'm not in a hurry, and want to keep uneven pressure to a minimum. I would definitely advise fully assembling the beast, except for the fuel rail (firewall clearance issues), as getting the rocker cover on is seamless on the stand, but REALLY sucks under the hood... Lifting the head on under the hood is a good way to seriously injure your back also.

Thanks for the input. And I agree, I really like the idea of getting the entire engine (minus the fuel rail) assembled on the stand - including the front cover and fully timed. But I continue to wonder and be concerned about getting access to the top 4 bolts from the trans into the engine. Those 4 bolts were nearly impossible to access with the head off the block. What is your experience with installing a fully assembled engine?

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Quick update from the machine shop. They had completed the pressure testing on the old, damaged head. Interesting that it was fine, no cracks or leaks and it was still flat. Hmmm. Will probably put that head on the shelf just in case I have another issue down the road. They are now kicked off on the rebuild of the other/used head. They are going to try to get it finished before weekend. Guess my weekend plans for locked down now :BINGO:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:21 pm

No problem, those housing bolts just suck bad. Like you mentioned earlier, just put a floor jack under the transmission crossmember, and take it loose, and then you can get to them with about 30" or so of extensions on a ratchet. An extra pair of hands would be really nice to get the socket on some of the bolts. I was also able to get some of them installed with a ratcheting box wrench, but it was not easy. I have been avoiding buying CRD's that need the engine pulled, because it is a massive amount of labor.

hmm, just in case you want to spend an extra $2-300, now is your chance to throw in an upgraded torque converter. Then you could get a GDE Ecotune, and net about 3-4 mpgs, which would pay for itself if you keep it around for 50k or so. You could buy the tune later, but you never want to have to mess with those bolts again if you can help it.
Also lowers EGT's, so should give you a longer engine life. Oh, and if you resell it someday, it might be a nice selling point for people here on Lost that would be really happy it already had the new TC.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

I just opened the AirtexWells crank position sensor box from RockAuto. It is a Bosch sensor - stamped as such right on the end of the sensor just like the OEM. So here's an opportunity to save some $$. Order your replacement sensor from Rock and select the Airtex.

kmaylone · **Posted:** Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:53 am

The Standard parts sensors are Bosch also.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Well, with the arrival of the last 2 Fedex deliveries today, I now have a $2400 box of parts sitting in my office. And might I say - its not that big of a box :dizzy:

Weekend will launch the reassembly process... :JEEPIN:

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:21 pm

Welcome to Jeep: Just Empty Every Pocket.

Efren_Hinojosa · **Joined:** Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:29 pm **Posts:** 42

I am afraid to drive my libby now

Valves dropping, rockers breaking

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dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Did a little work today. Put the new crank position sensor. What a dream job while the engine is on the stand v. in the car.

I also replaced the rear main seal. And to answer the question I posed earlier in this thread about whether the process was as easy as it seemed based on the SM, no it is not. Not a terrible job, just a little tricky.

For starters the SM says nothing about needing to pull the flex plate adapter/hub to gain access to the oil seal. And once you pull it off it says nothing about the thrust plate & oil washer/shim that fall off in your lap. And yes, they have a very specific orientation to work properly. So pay very close attention after you pull the hub don't let the other 2 parts fall off. Getting the oil seal out wasn't too bad. It comes out in 2 pieces. The inner steel plate and then you have to separately pry the outer diameter seal/steel ring.

Then comes the fun part - installing the new seal. Of course there is a 'special tool', but I figured I could take a run at it without the special tool. I've done many such seals without the special seal driver. Take your time, tap carefully with a small hammer around the perimeter of the seal and it will go in. But not this seal. Its is huge - like 6inches in diameter. And you aren't just fighting the friction fit of the external diameter steel seal. You are simultaneously fighting a near press fit of the inner steel ring to the crank. I looked around the shop for something I could use as a seal driver, but this thing is so large in diameter I simply had nothing that would even come close.

But I found a way - maybe a good trick. I grabbed the old seal, flipped it over (there is an extruded shape that protrudes out one side of the steel seal) and the 8 hubs bolts and used it to drive/screw the new seal in. Run the hub bolts in slowly and work back and forth across the hub so you drive the seal in uniformly. Worked like a charm. No distortion, seated flat.

Lastly, I chose to put a few drops of locktite on the flexplate bolts. The SM doesn't call for it, but the torque spec is so low (24ftlbs), that I just don't trust it. I have experienced flexplate bolts backing out on another rebuild (not a Jeep). I do not want to pull this thing apart again. Once is enough. And there is no way I buy those flexplate bolts were only torqued to 24ftlbs at the factory. I snapped a T50 impact driver off getting them off.

I have decided to build the engine in place v on the stand. Tough decision and thanks to those who gave feedback. So with that decision made I went ahead and dropped it back between the frame rails. A lot easier than I thought it was going to be based on the removal. My son and I had it back in, aligned and a couple of bolts started in less than 15min. Made it in time for dinner :BINGO:

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:36 am

Nice work and a good tip! Sounds like at this pace, you might have the thing rumbling away by church on Sunday!

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Reassembly delayed. Machine shop got backed up and didn't finish the head rebuild today. Putting as much as possible back together, but will be at a standstill soon. Looks like no engine rumble until at least next wkend.

One thing I did today was to put a mark on the front side of the flexplate (in/thru the access hole) and aligning mark on the bellhousing. I marked it when the crank is at 90past TDC (timing alignment spot). I have found that it is such a pain to get the crank positioned perfectly so the timing pin goes in easily. With the crank hub being about 2in in diameter v. the flexplate being more like 18in, it is so much easier & accurate to get the flexplate mark lined. Plus, as you guys know the cam timing holes line up twice for every crank rotation. So by making a marking the flexplate you never find out you have the cams locked 180deg out (for the crank).

Overall the marking process was really easy for me because I had the engine on the stand. So I was able to perfectly line up the flexplate, install the timing/alignment pin (fully seated) and then mark the flexplate & bellhousing accordingly. Now if I ever need to get things timed and locked again all I need to do is pull the rubber access plug, rotate crank until the flexplate aligns with the marks and bingo - timed correct first time. Easy peasy

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:24 pm

Actually - the cams and the crank only line up with the timing marks every second turn... Because the crank is rotating twice as fast as the cams. Not the other way around.

Without the head being on, there also is no intake or exhaust strokes - just 90 ATDC on cylinder #1. When the crankshaft is set to that position, the bolt holes in the front hub will be vertical and horizontal, and the timing hole in the flexplate *must* be in the correct location for the bell housing. It doesn't mean that the threads in that hole will be clean however - I never use that pin anyway.

Just trust the timing mark on the front hub and the position of the bolt holes.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

geordi wrote:

Actually - the cams and the crank only line up with the timing marks every second turn... Because the crank is rotating twice as fast as the cams. Not the other way around.

Without the head being on, there also is no intake or exhaust strokes - just 90 ATDC on cylinder #1. When the crankshaft is set to that position, the bolt holes in the front hub will be vertical and horizontal, and the timing hole in the flexplate *must* be in the correct location for the bell housing. It doesn't mean that the threads in that hole will be clean however - I never use that pin anyway.

Just trust the timing mark on the front hub and the position of the bolt holes.

Geordi - I understand what you are saying and agree. I was thinking about it backwards - that the crank aligns only once for every 2 cam rotations. But its is the other way around. The cams only line up once for every 2 turns of the crank (because the cams are rotating half the speed of the crank). Makes sense.

I will note then that the audio in the youtube video linked below is incorrect. Listen starting at about the 7min mark. He has it backwards. He already has the cam pins in place and then comments on the install of the flexplate pin. Not sure if this person happens to be one of people on this forum, or if anyone knows this person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_uOjVG1XEs

Another interesting note from this 5 part youtube video. On part 5 he installs the cams gears. The person in the video aligns his previous alignment marks (for the cam gears), installs the gear holding tool (factory tool), torques the gears to spec, and then continues with the rest of the belt & tensioner install. That is not the SM procedure. The SM calls for getting the belt on & tensioned before the cam gears get torqued. In the SM torquing the cams gear bolts is the last step. Hmmm...

Nonetheless, I like the finer graduation of the extra mark I made on the outer diameter of the flexplate to help tune in the location exactly. Aligning a mark 12inches off the centerline of rotation is a lot more accurate than aligning a mark 1inch off the centerline of rotation, especially when you are fighting the rotational mass of the crank, pistons, etc. Once I was able to use the finer tuning mark of the flexplate I was able to get the factory flexplate timing tool to screw right in place with no problems. I have no issues with the threads on the block.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:37 pm

hmm, yeah, the way you said that he tightens the sprockets first, and not last, that would defeat the way the sprockets float (no key), and if it wasn't timed perfectly from the factory, or last belt anyhow, then that would repeat the mistake. I like the floating sprockets, and the neutral position that they allow the belt to be in when setting the timing. Maybe the engineers that came up with this keyless sprocket are ahead of VW and the others, hmm?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:28 pm

VW cam pulley is a keyless sprocket too. But the Germans decided to use a tapered shaft instead of a flat face behind the pulley, so as you torque the nut that pulley gets LOCKED in place. Can't slip later.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:30 pm

geordi wrote:

VW cam pulley is a keyless sprocket too. But the Germans decided to use a tapered shaft instead of a flat face behind the pulley, so as you torque the nut that pulley gets LOCKED in place. Can't slip later.

hmm, thanks for that correction, and I imagine they don't have the collapsible rockers? I don't know why I'm so fascinated with engine designs :dizzy:

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:44 pm

No they don't - that is actually one thing that the Italians got right. If you screw the timing on the TDI, you destroy the head b/c the valves will be jammed into the guides and trashed in place.

The TDI uses caps that ride under the cams, with nothing more than a cushion of oil that keeps the cam from touching the cap. I don't know how they survive so well.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Got an update from the machine shop. Used head checked out fine, no cracks, leaks or warp. :BANANA:

They are going to take a couple thousandths off just to insure a virgin sealing surface. Head thickness will still be within SM 'new' spec. I asked them to test the springs on the used (180k miles) head v. original (128k miles). They tested exactly the same. Interesting. Saves some cash having to switch over the springs. They are going to clean up the valve seats to insure good sealing. And I dropped off the intake/cam carrier. They are going to get it cleaned up. Should stay that way now that the weeks stage 1/2 are going on during reassembly.

All in about $350 in labor. Should be ready today or tomorrow. But it looks like reassembly waits until next weekend. We are headed for high temps of single digits around here this weekend. Don't need it back on the road that bad! Especially considering next weekend is forecast to be nearly 50. I think I'll wait :juggle:

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Its darn cold around here this wkend. Decided to work in the heated part of the shop and subassemble the head with the exh manifold, turbo & thermostat. Since ive got the overhead lift i will just lower the whole thing onto the block. Save the back strain.

The machine shop did a really nice job cleaning up the intake. Got the weeks adapter installed. Ready to go next wken when it gets warmer outside.

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CRD quit, now just cranks but will not fire

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