Cooling issues, Meltdown temp then back to normal

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:47 am

Bad news and maybe good news...

Bad news: I don't know why you are losing coolant, the solution has not presented itself yet.

Maybe good news: If the cold engine test did not result in pressure in the water bottle, then I highly doubt you have combustion leaking into the water jacket. That means that your source of the leaking is neither the EGR cooler nor the head gasket.

When it is 28 degrees out and the engine is cold, combustion will be poor. Smoke from the exhaust is somewhat normal here, and does not directly indicate anything either, especially if the smoke clears as the engine warms. If it smells "sweet" then you may have an issue of leaking into the combustion system... BUT combustion pressure is 2500psi and more. Water pressure is 16 psi. Guess who wins. So why would there be no pressure in the water system if there was a combustion leak? answer: There would be, certainly if the cap is retaining pressure over time. Some pressure in the system is perfectly normal, this is from heat expansion.

You may have a weeping hose somewhere in the system at the moment, and that could explain your coolant losses. Are you seeing coolant in the overflow side (driver's side end) of the bottle, that doesn't get pulled back into the engine when cooling? Some "breathing" into the overflow is normal, such as when the system is completely filled with water and there is no air at all. Water expands into the overflow but is pulled back when cooling. If the level continuously drops, yet you don't have excessive pressure, then you most likely have a normal leaking hose or fitting somewhere. Time for a dye test.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

Thanks fellows... I R-E-A-L-L-Y NEEDED YOUR WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT TODAY.

I am really getting the bum's rush on the following thread...

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84021

As usual, it is the same group of members who do little to contribute, and like to spout off a lot of misinformation. Some of them have, on other threads, advocated other options as being viable, simply because the temperature needle on the O.E. gauge went up when said option was implemented.

They took offense on other postings when I told them why other options were risky. Now they are claiming I am hijacking the conversation on all of the postings regarding CRD engine cooling issues.

I am really frustrated right now because I got into this project almost three years ago in an effort to genuinely help CRD owners and their cooling system problems. I have spent hundreds of hours on this, and over $20,000.00 so far. I know I have a great product, but the "hold my beer, I am going to try something crowd" is dumping on the Model 001. They say it is way too expensive, and are practically accusing me of being "money driven".

CATCRD is right.. I have not turned a significant profit on this little venture. For the record, I will say it again... my profit margins are narrower and smaller than any other vendor on this site. I welcome anyone to call up the machine shop that manufactures the housings and hose barbs that make up 80% of my cost. Nobody else will do this, but I will.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:08 am

xhizzous wrote:

Could it still be possible that its coming through the EGR Cooler. I noticed since I was walking around while it was idling there was a significant amount of moisture in the exhaust. Diesels don't usually do the whole fog thing on startup with moisture in the exhaust.. or do they?

It was doing it the entire time It idled. Its ~28 Degrees here right now

I started my JD tractor yesterday, and it put a layer of frost on the frame, so any time you are superheating air, and cooling it down, moisture will result.

Just the fact it held pressure in the cooling system is sign enough you have a head leak, exhaust can not make the same type of pressures that will not return back through the same crack that it entered, plus idling the jeep may not have caused the combustion leak into the cooling system to occur. Not to mention 5 minutes of idling is not going to cause too much expansion a cold engine in the winter.

Also consider you are having the same exact symptoms I had, new head and gasket was the cure.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:25 am

Okay Jeff, gave you some encouragement. :jester:

xhizzous · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:54 am

Could possibly be self sealing leak that is not happening except at normal operating temp/ high boost situations when I'm on the throttle?It does have those ARP's squeezing it.

I will probably have to take it all apart and put it back together to restore my confidence in it. I don't want it to leave ME or my wife stranded.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:24 am

It will be hard to predict whether there is a crack or not without disassembling, but even at idle the combustion pressure is north of 2500psi, so I am dubious that you wouldn't see at least some pressure make its way into the water jacket if there was a path to do so.

Not running the engine long enough to allow thermal expansion is the point, cracks wouldn't make any difference with thermal expansion, either they are there or they aren't. But the water wasn't allowed to expand either, so all we were testing for was combustion pressure directly leaking. The only other test I can suggest at this point is the combustion gas chemical test.

If you are losing coolant however, I think the dye test may be more conclusive.put that in, run it for a while until the leak lowers the coolant level, then go looking for the dye trails with a UV light.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:38 am

I agree with geordi that a UV dye test should be the first step when chasing a coolant leak unless there is an obvious stream of bubbles entering the coolant tank. There are a host of places (don't forget oil cooler hose, egr hoses, and HVAC condensation drip tube, the latter would indicate a heater core leak) where one or more tiny and invisible leaks can cause significant coolant loss. If no luck then try a coolant system pressure test and test coolant for combustion gas. All relatively easy and cheap to do before going to all the effort to pull the head.

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:24 pm

xhizzous wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

The diagnosis from the posts here seem to be spot on. I would suspect head gasket issues as well; however, xhizzous, contact me if you wish so I can get the details and help any way I can.

Indeed, try another thermostat valve, perhaps a 190 degree valve... that is what the Model 001 is designed for.

Best regards,

yea, I'm thinking its head gasket as well now. There is no reason I should be getting an air bubble inside the top of the radiator/ pressure while the vehicle is cold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs

that video is not me but what his recovery bottle does is the same thing mine does.

This is what mine is doing also...

Sent from my Samsung Note 4 using Tapatalk.

xhizzous · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:56 pm

ChooChooman74 wrote:

xhizzous wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

The diagnosis from the posts here seem to be spot on. I would suspect head gasket issues as well; however, xhizzous, contact me if you wish so I can get the details and help any way I can.

Indeed, try another thermostat valve, perhaps a 190 degree valve... that is what the Model 001 is designed for.

Best regards,

yea, I'm thinking its head gasket as well now. There is no reason I should be getting an air bubble inside the top of the radiator/ pressure while the vehicle is cold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs

that video is not me but what his recovery bottle does is the same thing mine does.

This is what mine is doing also...

Sent from my Samsung Note 4 using Tapatalk.

I'm going to load it up with UV dye then and drive it around a bit, hopefully it will not get hot again. I have the EGR cooler elimination kit so I might as well completely eliminate those extra parts.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:45 pm

ChooChooman74 wrote:

xhizzous wrote:

[

yea, I'm thinking its head gasket as well now. There is no reason I should be getting an air bubble inside the top of the radiator/ pressure while the vehicle is cold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs

that video is not me but what his recovery bottle does is the same thing mine does.

This is what mine is doing also...

Sent from my Samsung Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Yup been there done that :dead:

btw my video too. What else can possibly pressurize your system to the point that the system is still at 16PSI cold? Can an exhaust leak that can freely exit through the tail pipe do this? Compression is sealed, with only a few ways out, even out of a tight space. If the low pressure of exhaust can leak in, it should just as easily leak out. Right?

Wish you luck with the dye and research, but I did not even waste my time with the combustion gas test, problem became very obvious. But rehearse it over again just like I did a few years back. :juggle:

ChooChooman74 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:30 pm

I am going to probably get my head gasket done. Just starting to get the stuff together. Just ordered the Hot Diesel Thermostat. Going to get some head studs. Get the whole timing belt done again, too.

xhizzous · **Posted:** Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:34 pm

Im probably going to start off with the EGR Cooler elimination and see if anything changes. If it persists im going to have to pull the head. I'll put all new Timing belt and such in it as well when I do. No sense in putting it back together with only 1/2 the timing belt life on it.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:13 pm

Here is my take:

1.) Your head gasket is leaking period. You have the exact symptoms that others and myself have had that were only fixed by a new head gasket.

2.) While you have ARP studs, was the gasket changed or only the studs installed? There is at least one other member here who put in studs and did not change the gasket and his leak continued and got worse over time. If the gasket was starting to leak before the studs, they are not a magical cure all solution.

3.) You head may or may not be compromised. It will be need to be tested.

4.) Expansion from heat is likely causing the leaks. Mine leaked at highway speeds, but not on short trips in town.

5.) I have read recently that other members have been able to acquire the gasket alone without the OEM bolts from Europe.

Good luck.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:02 pm

WolverineFW wrote:

Here is my take:

1.) Your head gasket is leaking period. You have the exact symptoms that others and myself have had that were only fixed by a new head gasket.

2.) While you have ARP studs, was the gasket changed or only the studs installed? There is at least one other member here who put in studs and did not change the gasket and his leak continued and got worse over time. If the gasket was starting to leak before the studs, they are not a magical cure all solution.

3.) You head may or may not be compromised. It will be need to be tested.

4.) Expansion from heat is likely causing the leaks. Mine leaked at highway speeds, but not on short trips in town.

5.) I have read recently that other members have been able to acquire the gasket alone without the OEM bolts from Europe.

Good luck.

Amen to that. :5SHOTS:

xhizzous · **Posted:** Tue May 10, 2016 9:08 pm

I have the head off and have it at a machine shop. I was told my the machine shop that there are no cracks but the head is slightly warped in the middle by about 6 thousandths as well as there being indentations on the head from the cyl liners a few thousandths deep.

He suggested taking 12 Thousandths off the head to completely true everything up. I currently have the 0 hole headgasket (1.32mm) thickness. I was thinking of letting him take the 12 Thousandths he wants to take off then installing everything back with the 2 hole (1.52MM) thickness

1.32MM = 51.96t
Difference 3.9t
1.42mm = 55.90551
Difference 3.94t
1.52mm = 59.84252t

I figure with the 2 hole installed it will only be around 4 thousandths difference max, especially after I get done coating the head gasket in copper coat.

Do you guys think this is a good idea?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 7:16 am

Shaving 0.012" off the head sounds like a lot.
The valve seats are almost flush with the head surface.
If your machinist thinks he can cut that much without cutting into the seats, more power to him. But will there still be enough material to keep the head strong?

xhizzous · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 8:25 am

If this guy thinks he can take the head down that far he probably can, he machines all kinds of weird cyl heads for my uncle all the time.

I don't know if it would make the head weak. Just need to find out if anyone here has done it before successfully.

It is the original head/ head gasket that I pulled off.. being a 0 hole gasket i would have to assume there is some extra metal on the head that could be machined off to true it up.

SargeIndustries · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 12:14 pm

My head was machined .040" after a weld repair was done on a corroded area and valve seats were recut to recess them. Has been running just fine for 27,000 miles.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 12:22 pm

In theory it should be doable. In my experience, I have never seen a head that you could not take a few thousands off to true it up, but this engine is unlike anything else I have ever worked on over the past 50 odd years... :roll:

And yes, be sure and use a thicker head gasket to compensate for the milling loss...
Please keep us posted as to how it works out as many on this list could benefit from this knowledge in the future if everything works out ok... :wink:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed May 11, 2016 12:39 pm

SargeIndustries wrote:

My head was machined .040" after a weld repair was done on a corroded area and valve seats were recut to recess them. Has been running just fine for 27,000 miles.

Very interesting. Cutting 0.040" is way more than I would have expected.
So if the valve seat recesses were cut to allow the seat and valve to sit flush like they are supposed to, what did that do to valve spring installed height and spring tension?
Did the springs have to be shimmed to bring them back into spec?

Considering that with my cracked head all the cracks were around the valve seats, that's an area I would be very careful with.

Cooling issues, Meltdown temp then back to normal

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