Big class 8 trucks (and my 40 foot long diesel pusher RV) have somewhere in the vicinity of 330-400 horsepower.

Tiny Honda civic rice claim they have 300 HP too.

One of them is using shetland ponies (or even 1/10 scale models of shetland ponies)... The other is using Percheron draft horses. (think Budweiser Clydesdales, but even bigger)

The Honda might only generate that HP at 9000 rpm. The big trucks and my RV do it at 1400rpm. They have 1500lb-ft of torque, The RV is putting out about 1000.

The Jeep? Should be 260 lb-ft. It should have plenty of juice to pull that combination. You sure you aren't having a fuel restriction like a slowly plugging filter or a boost leak? Did you have the elbow kit to know that your EGR was completely sealed off? MANY people are dealing with minor boost leaks b/c the EGR is not completely sealed when disabled.

I agree, HP may get you there, but torque is what gets you there with the least amount of effort and economically!!!
I have pulled three different 10,000+ campers with three different vehicles, two being gassers and finally a Dodge Cummins Diesel and I can testify that both the gassers had way more HP (but less torque) than the Cummins Diesel but struggled hard to maintain diesent speeds over even moderate mountain passes while sucking up gas like to the tune of less than 5 mpg and heating up way above 220 deg's. F while doing it... The Dodge Cummins pulls the same load over anything you throw at it, never tries to overheat, and gets decent fuel milage at the same time and never seems to be in a real strain...
HP may get you there in a hurry, but torque is what moves loads!!! Why do think all big trucks have diesel engines???

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount
98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve

I tell people this exact same thing.

_________________
"Gunner": 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited CRD GDE ECO tune Bought 01Apr16 (71K miles)


If you're in New England and need your KJ TB done, PM me.

Retired:
Tractor: Dark Khaki '06 CRD Sport, GDE ECO & Trans Tunes, 2.5" lift + 245/75r16. - Sold 27Apr16
Ghost: Silver '06 KJ CRD Limited, bunch of goodies done - Sold 18Apr16

if you want to go up a hill fast you need horsepower and fuel, if you want to burn less fuel you'll need torque. if you can't adequately dispense with your exhaust gasses or cool your intake charge, good luck doing anything

Both power and torque are needed for towing. For example, in the silly commercial ford ecoboost has vs Chevy and ram EcoDiesel, they do a drag race on Eisenhower pass with 5 or 6 k lbs. Ecoboost is the fastest. Side the bad mileage and the ecoboost is indeed faster while towing.

Below torque in lbs/ft and hp:
Ecoboost 450 and 365
Ecodiesel 420 and 240
5.7 hemi 375 and 350

Even though EcoDiesel is a better overall half ton for towing due to the fuel efficiency, it does not have enough power to match the ecoboost, even if the torque is somehow close. Now, when talking about Cummins, that 6.7 engine has towards 1000 lbs/ft and 350 hp, so it's more than double the ecoboost has. Normally, it will pull that 6000 lbs trailer like it's not there.

_________________
2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.

You can disagree all you want, but to do a lot of work in a timely fashion, such as pulling a heavy trailer up a hill at the speed limit like I said earlier, you need HP. HP=Ft-lbs * RPM / 5252. This means you can either make a certain amount of horsepower by making a lot torque at low RPM(like the big diesels) or a little torque at a high RPM(like a honda civic). Ultimately it needs to make hp to get up the hill at a reasonable rate.

I was never arguing the towing characteristics of the motor, obviously I would rather tow with a hot tuned 200hp CRD than 210hp 3.7 V6 Liberty because the CRD has more desirable torque curve, but my point still stands. You will be the guy going 20mph under the speed limit if you put too much weight behind the CRD(or any vehicle with a big enough trailer for that matter). whether or not the jeep make 364 ft-lbs with a hot tune, it still only makes 200hp max.

My whole point was to say that yeah, it could pull 7000 lbs, but so could my self propel lawn mower given enough gearing and time. Doesn't mean its a good idea to pull a 7000 lb trailer with a lawn mower.



Exactly, but the Ecoboost is also 420. This whole argument came up cause I said the CRD doesnt make alot of HP and therefore doesnt have the ability to tow a heavy trailer up a steep hill and maintain the speed limit. I think thats a reasonable goal. The EcoBoost/EcoDiesel analogy is perfect. They have similar torque curves below 2500 rpm, both at 420 ft lbs, but the ecoboost's torque curve stays pretty flat out to 5500 rpm so it makes substantially more horsepower. It can climb the Ike Gaunlet with a 11,000 lb + trailer and exceed the speed limit in the process.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs

You can always have gasoline turbo on big trucks that will outperform the performance of a turbo diesel, but who wants to have 0.5 mpg or less gasoline vs 5-8 mpg diesel...

Regarding crd, for a 4 cyl 2.8 engine, I think it does a helluva job towing efficiently.

_________________
2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.

This thread isnt a gas vs diesel its about how much people tow with their Liberty CRD and people got all upset when I stated that the Jeep doesnt have enough HP to climb well with a 4500 lbs trailer. I simply agreed that the EcoDiesel/EcoBoost analogy was a good one to prove HP is what pulls a trailer.

I also never said the CRD was a bad tow vehicle, I said it towed the boat locked in 5th on the flats no problem but doesnt have enough HP to maintain speed on hills with a heavy trailer, which is 100% true. I think most people here have an Eco tune, but having a hot tune I still had trouble towing a 4500lbs boat on 93 in NH, which isnt particularly hilly . You have people in here saying they tow 8000 lbs or more like its not a big deal. Nevermind stability issues, the jeep doesnt have enough power to tow 8000 lbs effectively at highway speeds. I too towed over 7000 lbs one time and it sucked, but luckly it was only 5 miles and back roads. If I had to get on the highway it would have taken me a decade to get up to speed. I guess people are ok going way under the speed limit and becoming a PITA and safety hazard to other drivers.

If you wanna tow more than 5000 lbs on a regular basis, get a better tow vehicle. I dont care if its a Ram EcoDiesel, F150 EcoBoost or a GM 6.2L, they will all be more effective than the jeep.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs

Mass-hole, my comments are not against you, or as an argument with you. I just said it in general. High torque is what gets things moving. High power is what keeps them moving. The perfect combo torque and power plus transmission will make a vehicle best in class regarding power train for towing. I believe crd is excellent for a small SUV and provided you tow one axle 2000-ish lbs trqiler, this is the perfect vehicle since you barely notice it. Anything bigger/heavier could make it struggle at higher speeds. A 1500 truck may tow 11k lbs max, but it's not meant for that, it will tow it but won't like it. Same with the jeep towing over 4000 lbs. This is at least the way I use the jeep and the EcoDiesel, I usually go 1/2 max towing capacity. Well, there are cases I don't have a choice, but those are exceptions. Going "easy" with your vehicles ensures low wear and tear. Personal opinion, no offense taken if anybody disagrees...

Diesels are used mainly for efficiency reasons and for their inherent high torque at low rpm.

_________________
2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.

For sake of good towing discussion, compare just the 2005 two Jeep Liberty's and their respective engines!
Connect a 3,000 pound trailer behind a Jeep Liberty 4x4 with the 3.7L gas engine which has more HP but less torque and you will find the Jeep diesel with less HP and more torque will out perform the gasser greatly on holding speeds on moderate inclines due to the higher available torque...



As to factory tow ratings from Chrysler:
Jeep Liberty 4x4x with 3.7L gas engine Tow Capacity: 3500 lb
Jeep Liberty 4x4x with 2.8L diesel engine Tow Capacity: 5000 lb
Even Chrysler tells you the gasser is less capable with the only difference is engines:>>> bodies, transmission, and hitches all being equal!!!

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount
98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve

Also consider where the TQ peak is at for each respective engine, and the shape of the TQ curve. The gasser needs to revved way the f**k up there to get even a modicum of TQ. Also, looking at the HP peaks, I'm willing to bet that the HP profiles are remarkably similar. The gasser needs to scream up to 5200 to hit 210, and the CRD puts down 160 @ 3800 revs. I'm presuming that the gasser at 3800 revs puts out a similar 160-ish HP. I'm too lazy to find the graphs, though.

_________________
"Gunner": 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited CRD GDE ECO tune Bought 01Apr16 (71K miles)


If you're in New England and need your KJ TB done, PM me.

Retired:
Tractor: Dark Khaki '06 CRD Sport, GDE ECO & Trans Tunes, 2.5" lift + 245/75r16. - Sold 27Apr16
Ghost: Silver '06 KJ CRD Limited, bunch of goodies done - Sold 18Apr16

And really, the Jeep is putting close to 160hp down at 2800 rpm. The last 1200 rpm isn't really needed other than to give room for the transmission to downshift. That's why it does so well towing flat, because at highway speeds it's well into it power band in 5th gear.

From GDE:


So that's where the convenience of the diesel comes in, but if you were in a situation where you needed peak power, like pulling a hill, the CRD has nothing left to give and I would not be surprised if u hooked the same trailer to both, the gas could drag it up the hill faster(maintain speed better) with the extra hp. It might be screaming the whole way, uncomfortable, overheating or whatever, but thats like almost 1/3 more hp. A hot tuned or stage 2 turbo'd crd would be a different story.

So yes, for most of Ur towing the crd is certainly much better, especially if it's tuned where it's basically always better. But those situations where you really have to put the hammer down is where it leaves you hanging.

Around here(Utah, WY) the speed limit is 80mph on 5 mile 7% grades. A crd will not pull a 5000 lb travel trailer through the air and up a hill like that at anywhere even close to the speed limit. When people are rolling by you at 2x your speed things get dangerous in a hurry. I see it all the time coming up from Salt Lake City to Park City where the 18 wheelers are only doing 30-40mph. It turns into Mario Kart. I've even passed an accident where a guy on a motorcycle died because he ran into the back of an 18 wheeler climbing the pass. At least a loaded down 18 wheeler weighs 50 tons and has 53' of trailer behind it, your Jeep doesn't.

That said, the new DI gas motors are much better than the gassers of yore. Even without turbos, I think GMs 5.3 and 6.2's are making like 90% of their peak torque at 2000 rpm, which is over 400 ftlbs in the case of the 6.2. Aside from the comparatively poor fuel economy, gasoline DI has closed a lot of that performance gap.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs

The gear ratios of the CRD are not best for towing a heavy load up a mountain.
Now, if you could hold 4th gear up to 70mph without it shifting to 5th (GDE TCM towing tune) then performance would be better.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

This is a huge factor, I have 2 identical 6.5 suburbans, 3.54 heard truck is great empty but whines and cries with a 6000# trailer, 4.10 geared burb regularly pulls 10,000# without batting an eye even before I opened up the exhaust.

I recently towed a 4100 lb boat on a 1400 lb trailer about 800 miles in a couple days, on all kinds of roads. My CRD did the job ok, but that was pushing it. I babied it, drove about 60 most of the time. It would not go much faster. I often turned off the overdrive, particularly if I was going up any kind of incline. I had to stop once on a long climb in Vermont to let it cool down, it would have overheated if I'd kept going. On one steep city street I had to put it in low range. I used both a weight distribution kit and an anti-sway bar. I have done a lot of towing in other vehicles and had never used either before, but would recommend both in this case. I did a few test drives before the big trip, and found that both of those systems helped compensate for the short wheelbase of the Jeep. Proper tongue weight is also key. 1-200 lbs of tongue weight is NOT ok for a heavy load, if you don't have 10% or so on the tongue the load will pull you around in a small vehicle like this. I played around with the tongue weight too, positioning the boat forward or back, and found 10% was, like they say, about right.

With the WD and anti-sway kit it towed pretty nicely. Without them, it did not. I am a pretty experienced trailer tower and though I was able to keep it under control without that gear a long haul would not have been any fun. You need to get the right WD kit, too, they are weight specific. I found a good deal on a used one from a local RV dealer. The trailer does have brakes, but actually, I tested it without them and was surprised at the stopping power of the Jeep. Not sure they were really necessary but nice to have.

I have only had my CRD a short time, and have not had time to do any of the recommended upgrades. Everything is stock, and it has 140k on it. Possibly a cleaner and more up-to-date motor would have handled the tow easier. Like I said, it did it, and I'll do it again, but I wouldn't do that all the time.