Overheating, need guidance

ryanchris · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:17 pm

--Overheating, need guidance.

-Backstory-

Never did this before, but I did not own the jeep long. And only towed a few
times in a few months before I had a lift installed and bumper.
After the guy installed a lift the low coolant light came on, on the way home
and it also hit the heat chime around the same time. Pulled over let it cool
and drove slow home.. I got some coolant and added it.
For fear he added the wrong coolant or something I flushed the system and
added new coolant. Flushed it a couple of times, even used the chem flushing
additive and let it set / drove it a few days.

-What’s happening –

Engine start or tries to overheat while on HWY at speeds of
50ish and above for prolonged times while towing or on a hill. It gets better
or is helped when I run the heat full blast. It still gets close to
overheating (alitte over 3/4) depending on towing or the hill. Does it
faster or gets worse with the AC on

-What I have done-

Flushed system and new coolant

Changed the Rad - got alittle better / ran alittle cooler.. Still the same
result.

Replaced the clutch fan with the heavy duty unit. (I cannot tell any
difference in flow or sound at any temp)

Glutted old thermostat - got alittle better / ran alittle cooler.. Still the
same result.

Checked the coolant for pressure the next day cold in morning - there wasnt
really any. Maybe a small seal but not pressure so to speak.

Doesnt seem to be any coolant in the oil, or oil in the coolant. But then
again I have change and drained it alot so that might effect it?

- What I have not done / Plan to do next -

Infrared gun the engine, coolant, thermostat to see temps if the sensor is
bad. Could not locate my gun until last night.
Install inline stat
Check for gases in coolant
Check pressure of coolant or cap
Check or replace water pump (TB job on the list after I get the heat issue
sorted )
Check intercooler or condencer for blockage (arb removal being a beast) going
to clean them with Foaming coil cleaner. I have sprayed them out best I could while they were on the jeep though.

Lastly it would be a headgasket i am guessing?

-MISC-

While changing / adding / flushing coolant, Opening the bleed on the top of
the rad I get small bubbles while running with coolant coming out. The
bubbles seem to continue and show no signs of stoping even though they seem to
show less than when it is first purging most of the air out

The line from the theromstat seems to constatinly flow coolant to the
overflow and it kinda looks like bubbles in there but it is hard to see
through the plastic. (Not sure if this is because I gutted the stat or not
since I was afraid it might be stuck half open or something)

I have done the FHM to a gatorade bottle, and it seems to put out smokey
steam. Its not real hot where it would burn my hand but still steamy. There
is some pressure or flow from the hose but not alot.

I have 160ish on the clock. The timing belt was changed around 80k ago by
the last owner. I am unsure if they did the water pump at the time. I assume so since it was done at the dealer. I am
going to do a timing belt soon. Again I would like to figure out this
overheating thing first.. But I know a water pump could be a possible
problem.. But most of the time when they fail doesnt it take out the whole
rig?

I have had some CELS Underboost. I replaced the CAC hoses even though they
seemed without splits. But where covered in alot of oil. I assume the
intercooler still has oil in it and am going to try and clean it. I am still
getting an underboost code. Assume that could be from the intercooler oil ,
or it cracked and leaking as some do I will check that.. Or it could be from from the EGR
elbow / intake being clogged with soot. I have replaced the MAP, but it seems to continue to get dirty. I am going to delete the egr as soon
as I can solve this heat issue. The last owner sold it because of the egr system needed to be replace per the last service dealer. I just ORMed it until I could remove it. I have also tried the vacuum bypass... But
that was before the cac hoses or anything else. Checked all the vac lines found
and replaced one bad one. Code still shows.

Also had a Glow plug 3 code. Bought plugs and going to replace them when I do
the egr delete.

Any thoughts or guidance would be most welcome. I am kinda at the end of my rope at the moment and am posting this as such. I have read all I can and tried to understand or digest what I could.. But.. Anyway sorry for any errors or whatnot I wrote this in somewhat of a hurry / a beat up state. So please be genital ha.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:32 pm

I'd work on solving the boost issue first. If you're not getting enough boost, the EGTs will be quite high. If you've replaced the hoses already, I think the next thing would be to delete or replace that egr valve.

Mike

ryanchris · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:40 pm

I thought for a bit that the under boost might be tied to the overheating, the boost is showing up to 18ish normal driving and I have seen it up to around 20 I think but not a lot. Also wouldn't too much fuel cause the engine to run cooler? The MPGs are pretty crap I get around 15ish to 17ish it seems. But I do not drive it much since I do not want to mess it up anymore with the issues.

B4NGER · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:07 pm

18-20 is normal boost levels, and if it truly had low boost levels/ bad turbo you should be chugging out black smoke form the tailpipe. the under boost code may be due to the MAP sensor being dirty and unable to read properly. Your low fuel economy issue is due to the EGR being active, disable it by unplugging the MAF sensor in the airbox tube until you can get it tuned out, your mileage will go up to the 20s. As far as the overheating issue goes it sounds like you have low coolant flow or pressure through the system(i.e. water pump impeller blades worn out/damaged or you still have air trapped in the system somewhere). Try and install a new coolant reservoir cap and see if this fixes your issue. If the cooling system is unable to build proper pressure due to a failed pressure cap it will not raise the boiling point of the coolant and this may be allowing the coolant to boil (constantly flowing overheated/boiling coolant into the reservoir as you stated) i also think this may be a main issue because you say the worst overheating is under some form of excessive load. Also when you disable the EGR the cooling system will not have to try and cool hot exhaust gasses and should then be over sized for the job of just cooling the engine itself.

ryanchris · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:17 pm

Good to know its normal or close to it... I didn't know if it was a higher psi or what. Looked at the turbo when I had some stuff off and was upgrading the CAC hoses no play that I could tell in the turbo. But it did have a ton of oil it, so much so it was running down the side of it from the intake hose. Map has been dirty every time I have removed it. which has been a few. I changed it out when I first bought it, and have probably cleaned it twice. It does show some black smoke but not sure what is normal for a jeep. It does seem to show less for awhile after the map has been cleaned. I do have the MAF unplugged atm, until I tune or get the EGR delete installed.
I guess I could clean the map and take it up to highway speed and see if it still over heats, hoping that it doesn't get clogged to mess up the test in the meantime??
The coolant does hold pressure when the jeep gets up to temp, just not sure how much since I do not have the gauge to measure that. I have been thinking about going and buying one of those as well as the gas test for the coolant here in the next couple of days.

B4NGER · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:51 pm

even if the reservoir cap looks good it still may be bad,its also a cheap item to eliminate form the possibilities. you also should be able to rent one of the coolant system pressure testers from an auto parts store for free. a combustion gas tester for the coolant also shouds like a cheap Diagnosis tool would proceed with that. Whenever i bleed a cooling system after refilling i run the vehicle with the cap off from cold to operating temp at idle for about 20 or so minutes, should be enough time to purge out all air form system as the coolant should be fully expanded at that time. could still have some air trapped somewhere limiting your flow capabilities. also checking engine temp vs radiator temp to see if coolant is not flowing through due to a bad water pump or whatnot.

ryanchris · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:56 pm

So alittle up date. Got home from work today and I had just filled the coolant up last night. Noticed it was ever so slightly lower. Looked under the jeep and there was a small puddle of coolant. It seem to be coming from the center of the waterpump best i can tell and dripping like a slow leaky faucet. I assume this is the weep hole on the waterpump and it is toast?

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:43 pm

Water pump may be the coprit, no weep hole at water pump area. Do you see traces of white powdery dried up coolant residue on the block just below the water pump? Looks like a dried up stream of pinkish white powder.

If you see a pool of coolant just under the engine and below the water pump then the WP has to be replaced.

I am assuming that you were able to remove any and all of the air out of the head, if not then that should be 1st on your list.

ryanchris · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:06 pm

It looks like it is coming from the center of water pump best I can tell I can't get that good a look but i am pretty sure unless it is coming from somewhere else and just collecting there and dripping. Funny that i have been messing with this for weeks and when I post here it starts to leak. Do water pumps normally fail like that ? I thought they normally take out stuff on crds? I guess I would say maybe finally got lucky with this rig..... But then something else would happen so I won't.

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:15 pm

1. Get rid of the inline thermostat asap. It's doing more bad than good, especially in high engine load, there is a danger to overheat the engine. Also, make sure you have an oem thermostat (behr) or a hds thermostat (anything else, like crown, is garbage).
2. What lift kit you have and more important, what tires? Higher diameter tires will put more load on the engine.
3. Make sure the coolant system is purged of air.
4. Make sure radiator, intercooler and Ac condenser/Trans cooler are clean and not dirty.
5. Make sure you get a gde tune (recommended) or a free tune to disable egr. A block off plate or weeks kit will help ensuring no egr gets to the intake, if egr valve is broken.
6. Not a bad idea to check if the sensor is acting right.
7. Make sure the catalytic converter is not clogged. Haven't heard of them clogging but without a tune I see it possible. Also, make sure the muffler is not restricted.
8. You may have a crown water pump. Make sure that's not the case by asking the previous owner. If you have a crown, replace it asap with a Graff or oem from idparts.com.

Usually the overheating is caused by bad thermostat on these engines. Or a bad viscous fan pulley. If you have a good oem or hds thermostat and a good working viscous then you can eliminate this.

As said, bad turbo will usually cause black smoke. Check the turbo play.

Oh, check your map sensor, if that is clogged and gives false readings, your fuel ratio may be messed up.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:58 pm

Quote:

1. Get rid of the inline thermostat asap. It's doing more bad than good, especially in high engine load, there is a danger to overheat the engine. Also, make sure you have an oem thermostat (behr) or a hds thermostat (anything else, like crown, is garbage).

OP already stated that he already gutted the factory thermostat housing and therefore has zero thermostat. Therefore he should be GTG for installing a in-line thermostat if he wants to.

It certainly seems that the problem is with the water pump.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:06 pm

To OP: ryanchris

Before you start pulling apart the t-belt and water pump, get your hands on a cooling system pressure tester.
Pressurize the cooling system to 16 psi, pull all 4 glow plugs, and pull the ASD fuse.
Then crank the engine and check for water spitting out the glow plug holes.

ryanchris · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:39 pm

I had planned to do the timing belt and thermostat anyway. Just not within the next few days.. More like a couple of months. Thanks for the help everyone i will try and keep you updated if you like.

As for Lift I am running the 6inch from jeepinbyal. On 33s not overly wide or big tires imo. The jeep does not seem to give a problem and the trans does not seem like it is having trouble.

I bought new glow plugs to install so doing that test will not be a big deal. Only thing I am really iffy about is the timing belt since I do not have any of the special tools. I know a few techs i am going to see if anyone has any that i could use from working on TDIs like I saw in a few write ups.

I plan on trying a few things suggested this weekend. I will probably go ahead and tear it all down maybe buy a timing belt kit here soon depending.. I would of done so already but not looking forward to wrestling with the ARB bumper.

SargeIndustries · **Posted:** Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:32 am

The oring that seals the water pump is easy to get installed wrong. It really needs to be a tad bit smaller in OD to fit into it's groove properly. I had a leak on my rig that turned out to be the oring came out of the groove at the bottom. I crawled under my Jeep and could actually see oring sticking out from the water pump housing. I am surprised that it sealed as good as it did. Had to pull the whole thing apart to replace a silly oring.

ryanchris · **Posted:** Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:47 pm

So here are some pictures i managed to get today. Not the greatest since it is hard to get an angle on the water pump, but to me it seems to be the source of the leak.

I bought the stuff to attempt to do the belt and waterpump. So i guess we will see when it arrives. If that an everything else when back together doesnt solve the issues I might just have to drive it to the worst area i know leave it and hope it gets stolen. Even with all the money i have put into it....

Pictures. Last one if the clearest i could get of the waterpump from under with coolant on the bottom.

ryanchris · **Posted:** Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:12 pm

No thoughts on where the coolant is coming from from anyone?

I got the EGR all but removed today. I spent most of my time messing with the last bolt closest to the engine in the front... Man that thing was hard to get at. The elbow was not as sooted up as i thought it would be. Is it possible the exhaust valve unit below was stuck open causing my overboost code?

Also my CCV puck seems to have puked oil out all around it on the intake when i drove it for a few miles the last time to check my latest overheat fix. The EH doesnt seem to be blocked might i need a new puck? Or??

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:14 pm

Your last pic showed something dripping from the bottom of the water pump. If it's not the water pump, it's something above the water pump. Is your thermostat leaking?
This is where a cooling system pressure tester really comes in handy.

EGR problems usually cause a under boost code.
Over boost is usually related to the turbo actuator.

Is the hose on your CCV clamped on tight?
If not, it will leak oil.

ryanchris · **Posted:** Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:35 pm

I do not think the thermostat was leaking. As far as I could tell anyway. I will check again, maybe just reinstall again with everything off to make sure. Yeah i will probably do the pressure check when i get it all back together. Might as well i have done everything else it seems at this point ha.

I was getting the underboost code. So hopefully that is my problem there. I am still getting some oil in the CAC hoses... I assume it is left over from the turbo (only alittle on that side) and the intercooler ( more on this side, I am going to clean that best i can and check for leaks).

CCV puck to the EH was not clamped since it didnt have clamps before..But thanks for the heads up I will add them. I am reclamping most of the coolant lines with new clamps and cleaning them off as i go. Also installing a new one to the oil cooler as one of the TB write up said i might as well do.

Anything else I might as well do while i have everything apart? Already changing out to the newer fuel head, adding the all the egr delete stuff, 4 new steel glow plugs, and going to try and clean what i can get to in the intake (by the map and elbow i guess). Is is worth it to pull the intake off? Much Harder? Anything i should check there like rockers? When it is running it sounds fine to me.. But id rather do it now if is worth it since it is as apart as ill ever want to take it.

Thanks everyone for your help.. I likely would not have bought the jeep had it not been for this site.. Since i used to work for a large dealer group which included a jeep franchise and the first time i saw a CRD jeep i thought it was awesome... Then i talked to the tech working on it, and he said they were junk... Hopefully once i get rid of all the common problem causing stuff he will be proven wrong.

Ceearedeedriver · **Joined:** Fri May 06, 2016 8:44 pm **Posts:** 177

ryanchris wrote:

...Then i talked to the tech working on it, and he said they were junk... Hopefully once i get rid of all the common problem causing stuff he will be proven wrong.

Dealer techs don't usually know s*** about this vehicle but unfortunately this guy was correct.

Sounds like a head gasket problem. You're leaking combustion gasses into the cooling system which are interfering with coolant flow which is causing your overheating issue. The elevated pressure is exasperating your leak.

Start off by testing for combustion gasses in the coolant.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:21 am

I have to read the thread more closely, but the loss of coolant is most commonly from the back of the coolant bottle due to head gasket leaks. Arp studs will solve that particular problem if the leak is not too bad. Other common leak points are the o-ring on the water pump (it is very thin and can get pinched during installation) or the thermostat gasket if the head is not cleaned completely before installing. If the surface is scored up by too-aggressive cleaning, that can also cause leaks from the thermostat gasket area.

I would start with a pressure test, and use the UV dye to chase any potential leaks easier.

Overheating, need guidance

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