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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:54 pm 
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I believe I'm going to give the Kennedy centrifugal lift pump a try.

I did an experiment today, and tried repriming the fuel system after only one tank of fuel. I found that the factory fuel filter had accumulated a sizeable air pocket after only 430 miles since the last time I had drained and reprimed the filters.

This would explain a few things. I've noticed that after 2 to 4 tanks of fuel, it would tend to misfire at times and do a mild version of the tranny stutter step.

I had assumed this was due to accumulated water and crud in the first filter, because after draining and repriming the fuel filters, it would be back to running smooth.

Now, it seems the real reason is that once the air pocket grows past a certain point, it gets sucked thru the filter and you have air mixed in with fuel causing the stutter step/misfire and/or blocking off some of the fuel flow thru the filter.

It could also be an indication that even a small air leak in the fuel system, one not large enough to be readily obvious, could end up causing you problems after some time.

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'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:28 am 
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retmil46 wrote:
I believe I'm going to give the Kennedy centrifugal lift pump a try.

I did an experiment today, and tried repriming the fuel system after only one tank of fuel. I found that the factory fuel filter had accumulated a sizeable air pocket after only 430 miles since the last time I had drained and reprimed the filters.

This would explain a few things. I've noticed that after 2 to 4 tanks of fuel, it would tend to misfire at times and do a mild version of the tranny stutter step.

I had assumed this was due to accumulated water and crud in the first filter, because after draining and repriming the fuel filters, it would be back to running smooth.

Now, it seems the real reason is that once the air pocket grows past a certain point, it gets sucked thru the filter and you have air mixed in with fuel causing the stutter step/misfire and/or blocking off some of the fuel flow thru the filter.

It could also be an indication that even a small air leak in the fuel system, one not large enough to be readily obvious, could end up causing you problems after some time.

If you are getting air in the system you have a leak and/or possibly a bad check valve. I would start with the factory fuel filter where you discovered the air pocket (sucking air through a leak at bottom drain, the top seal or a fitting). There is an outside chance the air could be from a foaming effect that sometimes happens when running low on fuel, very rare. Most likely it's a leak, common with drainable filters. Mess with them often, eventually they will leak.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:48 am 
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RFCRD wrote:
If you are getting air in the system you have a leak and/or possibly a bad check valve. I would start with the factory fuel filter where you discovered the air pocket (sucking air through a leak at bottom drain, the top seal or a fitting). There is an outside chance the air could be from a foaming effect that sometimes happens when running low on fuel, very rare. Most likely it's a leak, common with drainable filters. Mess with them often, eventually they will leak.
This is very, very true, and should be listened to if you are having air in the fuel. Having had experience with VW's and their little drain that is simuliar to ours and seen how many have leaked fuel, broke or had air broblems after the little screw valve has been messed with, I would advise never to mess with the drain valve while installed on the vehicle. If you have enough water in the filter requiring it to be drained, you will need to flush the system most likey and then talk with fuel supplier about the water problem.

I would imagine these filters are real sensitive to not being lubbed and/or over tightened causing a rinkle in the seal and a place for air leak. Almost every diesel I have ever seen with air in fuel, the problem is fuel filter sead related. On VW I only ever saw two with a pre fuel filter leak, one had a damaged fuel line from road debrie stricking a fuel line, the other had a line loose at a junction under the hood near fuel filter. Same with my MB experience, loose filter 90% fuel line leak other 10% of the time that may have been due to old age. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:01 am 
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I think I am missing the point on the extra filtration. The oem filter is certainly more than adequate for the CRD. I realize that the micron size passage is larger than some would like, but clearly with the volume of fuel in the system, very small particles will have a hard time accumulating to cause problems. If they are not dislodged it will be a very long time (mileage wise) before there are problems with the fuel system.

In addition, if problems occur from bad fuel, or air in line, etc. it is easy to spin off the OEM and replace, or tighten down to seat the gasket, etc.

So, as I said, I guess I'm missing the point. As I have said before, and will continue to say: its just a car. If you think you have to baby it by buying special oil, special filters, and making sure its bottom is powdered then you should get another car. Its a Jeeep for gods sake. Drive it, get rid of it, but don't whine about it


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:10 am 
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vtdog wrote:
I think I am missing the point on the extra filtration. The oem filter is certainly more than adequate for the CRD. I realize that the micron size passage is larger than some would like, but clearly with the volume of fuel in the system, very small particles will have a hard time accumulating to cause problems. If they are not dislodged it will be a very long time (mileage wise) before there are problems with the fuel system.

In addition, if problems occur from bad fuel, or air in line, etc. it is easy to spin off the OEM and replace, or tighten down to seat the gasket, etc.

So, as I said, I guess I'm missing the point. As I have said before, and will continue to say: its just a car. If you think you have to baby it by buying special oil, special filters, and making sure its bottom is powdered then you should get another car. Its a Jeeep for gods sake. Drive it, get rid of it, but don't whine about it


If you're not interested in the discussion, don't participate. Don't try to tell me I can't have the discussion.

By the way, if you're an automaker the definition of "adequate" is only that most of your product makes it out of warranty without major warrantied repair. I am interested in getting more than 70k out of my vehicle. If you can afford the disposable mentality go for it.

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GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:38 am 
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First of all, I never said you can't have the discussion. My point is and continues to be: if you are so afraid of the components and/or functions of the Jeep that you run into the night screaming like a 12 year old girl who sees a spider, then you ought to change vehicles and give yourself a chance at a good nights sleep.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:12 pm 
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vtdog wrote:
First of all, I never said you can't have the discussion. My point is and continues to be: if you are so afraid of the components and/or functions of the Jeep that you run into the night screaming like a 12 year old girl who sees a spider, then you ought to change vehicles and give yourself a chance at a good nights sleep.


On the other hand, if you don't have anything positive to say in the discussion and don't like the direction that it is taking...Why are you bothering to read or post to it? Your posts are out of line...basically name calling...and not appreciated on this forum.

This forum is here to let owners of similiar vehicles share information and asks questions to gain information. Some are here just to find out information on TSB's and problems common to the KJ. Others are here find ways to modify or improve their KJs.

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Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


Last edited by DarbyWalters on Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:19 pm 
DarbyWalters wrote:
vtdog wrote:
First of all, I never said you can't have the discussion. My point is and continues to be: if you are so afraid of the components and/or functions of the Jeep that you run into the night screaming like a 12 year old girl who sees a spider, then you ought to change vehicles and give yourself a chance at a good nights sleep.


On the other hand, if you don't have anything positive to say in the discussion and don't like the direction that it is taking...Why are you bothering to read or post to it? Your posts are out of line...basically name calling...and not appreciated on this forum.


What's really ironic, is vtdog used nearly the same response on me a while back on page two of this thread:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... r&start=15

vtdog wrote:
I will worry about the insurance company black book pricing only if my car gets crushed. Beyond that, the KBB values seem right on target. As I said before, stop whining like a 12 year old girl who sees a spider and just drive the dam thing. Try worrying about a new earth killer asteroid instead. If one hits the earth you won't have any thing to worry about and will get to watch the pretty colors before the shock wave blows you to atoms.


Must have a thing about 12 year old girls and spiders... :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:51 pm 
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alljeep wrote:

Must have a thing about 12 year old girls and spiders... :roll:


I'm afraid of both... :lol:

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Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:05 pm 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
alljeep wrote:

Must have a thing about 12 year old girls and spiders... :roll:


I'm afraid of both... :lol:


Don't know why. One is a potentially venomous creature that would kill you without remorse, and the other is just a bug! :wink:

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05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:28 pm 
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Nothing ironic about it at all. Truth is valid, no matter how much time passes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:37 pm 
vtdog wrote:
Nothing ironic about it at all. Truth is valid, no matter how much time passes.


This must be that female gotta have the last word thing again... It's always good to have a drama queen around to make the days more colorful for us all... :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:53 pm 
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Goglio704 wrote:
DarbyWalters wrote:
alljeep wrote:

Must have a thing about 12 year old girls and spiders... :roll:


I'm afraid of both... :lol:


Don't know why. One is a potentially venomous creature that would kill you without remorse, and the other is just a bug! :wink:
Hahahahahaha!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:28 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:

I've had thoughts about adding a booster pump as well. A small 12V centrifugal pump, such that you wouldn't have to worry about recircing fuel back to the tank, with just enough oomph to give 1 or 2 psi positive pressure at the inlet to the factory pump. You'd need to check what the flow rate is for the factory pump first, ie how fast it sucks fuel out of the tank, to ensure you put in a booster with large enough flow rate and not create a flow restriction instead of a flow aid! For a positive displacement booster pump, you'd need a pressure regulator to ensure you didn't overpressurize and rupture a fuel line, and for a recirc line it might be possible to splice into the vent hose at the fuel fill connection. The fuel supply and return lines have quick connect fittings under the vehicle just in front of the fuel tank. Most auto parts stores sell replacement quick connect fittings and lines/hoses, it should be possible to splice into the system at this point and still have the ability to to return everything to bone stock if needed.


I've done this on very high mileage VW diesels with less then new pumps. (200k-300k miles) A electric pump for a gasser at the least volume and pressure is all that's needed.
On VW diesels I've opened filters I've taken off and rarely find more then a drop or 2 of water in the bottom of the filter. Guess I've been lucky :D Do our filters have a drain in the bottom of the filter for water? Some late 80's vw's had water seperators under the car back by the tank but they stopped putting them on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:12 am 
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vtdog wrote:
I think I am missing the point on the extra filtration. The oem filter is certainly more than adequate for the CRD. I realize that the micron size passage is larger than some would like, but clearly with the volume of fuel in the system, very small particles will have a hard time accumulating to cause problems. If they are not dislodged it will be a very long time (mileage wise) before there are problems with the fuel system.

In addition, if problems occur from bad fuel, or air in line, etc. it is easy to spin off the OEM and replace, or tighten down to seat the gasket, etc.

So, as I said, I guess I'm missing the point. As I have said before, and will continue to say: its just a car. If you think you have to baby it by buying special oil, special filters, and making sure its bottom is powdered then you should get another car. Its a Jeeep for gods sake. Drive it, get rid of it, but don't whine about it


If you're in an area where you're always sure of getting good fuel, you're right, it should be more than adequate. But since last September, I've had 2 clogged fuel filters from fuel I've bought WITHIN 10 MILES OF HOME. And we also seem to have a local problem with water, possibly because this area is supplied by one or more pipelines from the Gulf that were contaminated because of last year's weather, or perhaps just old underground tanks.

If you only have one very fine filter in the system, and you get a bad tank of fuel, I'll tell you what happens - you're stopped butt cold on the side of the road when that filter clogs. And unless you have a spare filter and the tools in the back to change it out, you're going to be calling a tow truck.

Easy to change the OEM filter? :-)r :shock: What planet are you from? Maybe if you're sitting inside a nice warm dry garage with all the necessary equipment at hand and have an hour or so to kill, but I'd sure as hell hate to try doing it on a cold rainy night at a rest area, or worse yet on the shoulder of a busy road. It was fun enough doing it in my driveway on a warm sunny day, $35 for the filter and $50 worth of swearing. Even if all I wanted to do was to drain it down and check for water, I have to crawl underneath the beast just so I can see to unplug the blasted harness from the water sensor. I had to disconnect both fuel lines and both electrical harnesses to get enough room to swing a strap wrench to get the bloody thing off. I'd hate to see your definition of "hard".

The problem isn't that the filter is too coarse and lets small particles thru. Just the opposite. The problem is that you only have ONE filter with very small openings (ie, a fine filter) that will clog in a heartbeat if you get a tank of fuel with a lot of crap in it, and is a PITA to replace and expensive to boot.

The idea is to have a coarse, cheap, easy to replace filter upstream of the OEM filter, to stop the large chunks and prolong the life of that fine, expensive, PITA OEM filter, letting it concentrate on stopping the small particles. If you'd read thru the article in the one link, you would have seen that such an arrangement could easily double the service life of the OEM filter, not to mention prolong the life of the injectors, fuel pump, and other components.

In my case, I didn't buy a "special" filter. This was one I already had sitting on the shelf for eventual install on another vehicle. After seeing what a joy it was to change out the factory filter, on the spur of the moment I grabbed this aftermarket filter and added it in. Now it takes all of 10 minutes to drain/change out the aftermarket filter, reprime the fuel system, and be ready to roll again, not to mention that a replacement only costs $12 compared to $35 or better for the factory filter. In addition, the aftermarket filter has a nice solid metal old style radiator type drain valve on the bottom, compared to the plastic disc and thin rubber gasket on the factory filter.

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Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:44 am 
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I'm beginning to wonder, if whether or not most of us that have experienced only a mild version of the tranny two step, are instead suffering from air in the fuel system?

If you look thru the FSM, the specs are that the fuel pump is allowed to pull upwards of 10" Hg vaccum on the filter before calling it clogged enough to replace. That's ten inches of mercury vacuum, not ten inches of water. That's a considerable amount. Unless all the connections on the lines and fuel filter were virtually leakproof, you're going to end up with air in the fuel system with a vacuum approaching that level.

IMHO, another reason to add on some type of lift pump to keep the system at some minimal amount of positive pressure. It's a lot easier to spot fuel seeping out of a leak than it is to see air leaking in.

And notice I say "minimal amount of positive pressure". As oldnavy noted, the drain fitting on the factory filter is not the most robust setup, and is probably more suited at keeping air from leaking in than fuel from leaking out.

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Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler


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