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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:14 pm 
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TKB4 wrote:
yes and you can use it on whatever vehicle you might need it for and camping etc like you alluded to and a used one much less expensive. You could also add a dipstick heater to heat it up quicker if you wanted.


Thanks for the dipstick heater idea, I'll have to look at the wattage. I can run the block heater and my 400watt ceramic heater at the same time, so that's pretty cool.

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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:37 am 
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The dipstick heaters on amazon are 90 watts

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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:05 pm 
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TKB4 wrote:
The dipstick heaters on amazon are 90 watts


Thanks for that.
I'm just going to stick with the block heater myself. In -20 the jeep only needs about 20 minutes of block heater time to start easily. That's good enough for me

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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Mountainman wrote:
TKB4 wrote:
The dipstick heaters on amazon are 90 watts


Thanks for that.
I'm just going to stick with the block heater myself. In -20 the jeep only needs about 20 minutes of block heater time to start easily. That's good enough for me



Mountainman and others following this thread:

Great discussion!

The point of me bringing up diesel fuelled engine coolant heaters like the Webasto Thermo Top C and the equivalent Espar model is that you should be going OVERKILL on your solutions to cold weather starting.

Warming any internal combustion engine only to the point of making it start easily is still not that good of an outcome. Remember that vehicle manufacturers want us to keep purchasing vehicles throughout our lifetimes, and any solution that they must come up with to deal with a problem like cold weather engine starts will only go so far as to solve that problem alone. They will avoid any solution that will actually increase engine life and lower overall maintenance costs for the vehicle. Diesel fuelled engine coolant heaters accomplish this, and have a proven track record to back up their claims.

I used Webasto engine coolant heaters and cabin heaters in some brutally cold climate when I was driving professionally... they are everything they claim to be. In the case of the Liberty CRD engine, anything you can do to extend the life of the engine that is not too expensive should be seriously considered. Webasto heaters are not that expensive, will save you fuel, extend the life of your engine oil and indeed the engine itself. It is a no-brainer in my books, especially when you consider the fact that you must drop the fuel tank to install the much needed fuel lift pump anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:48 pm 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Remember that vehicle manufacturers want us to keep purchasing vehicles throughout our lifetimes, and any solution that they must come up with to deal with a problem like cold weather engine starts will only go so far as to solve that problem alone. They will avoid any solution that will actually increase engine life and lower overall maintenance costs for the vehicle.


I disagree with this statement. While I am never completely happy with the engineering on OEM equipment, I don't believe automakers are hoping their Motori or Duramax or Powerstroke or Cummins fails early so you'll buy another vehicle. Should they have a lift pump stock? Yes. Should they find and fix a few other bugs before going to market? Yes. But I believe it to be corporate time pressure and momentum, not some diabolical plan to make your Liberty fail before it's time.

I also don't believe a cold start, after block heater being plugged in for a few hours, is so bad for an engine.

I've nothing against Webasto heaters and it's something I would consider if I felt I needed it, but there are some long lived vehicles on this site that just plug in and start up.

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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:23 pm 
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Dave01 wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Remember that vehicle manufacturers want us to keep purchasing vehicles throughout our lifetimes, and any solution that they must come up with to deal with a problem like cold weather engine starts will only go so far as to solve that problem alone. They will avoid any solution that will actually increase engine life and lower overall maintenance costs for the vehicle.


I disagree with this statement. While I am never completely happy with the engineering on OEM equipment, I don't believe automakers are hoping their Motori or Duramax or Powerstroke or Cummins fails early so you'll buy another vehicle. Should they have a lift pump stock? Yes. Should they find and fix a few other bugs before going to market? Yes. But I believe it to be corporate time pressure and momentum, not some diabolical plan to make your Liberty fail before it's time.

I also don't believe a cold start, after block heater being plugged in for a few hours, is so bad for an engine.

I've nothing against Webasto heaters and it's something I would consider if I felt I needed it, but there are some long lived vehicles on this site that just plug in and start up.




A cold start is not terrible, but it is not ideal either.... just ask any automotive engineer. There is a reason why million dollar industrial engines have support systems like Webasto heaters to get the maximum available life the engine is capable of providing. No end user is going to purchase a 7-figure engine without an iron-clad guarantee that engine is going to last for many years with relatively low maintenance costs. If some of the technologies employed on industrial engines can be had on consumer-grade engines for a reasonable cost, why would you not employ those technologies?

"Failing early" is all a matter of perspective. Show me someone on this site who has a CRD with 500,000 miles... these engines should be capable of lasting at least 500,000 miles, but they do not. When they fail is due to engineering changes they have made to shorten the life of the engine... aluminum cylinder heads and compliance with an EPA whose agenda clearly appears to be getting diesel engines off of North American roads are two examples that come to mind.

You are naive to believe that auto manufacturers do not employ the ideology of planned obsolescence, because they have been doing so for many, many years now. Their very survival depends upon vehicles breaking down/wearing out and consumers going back to them to buy more vehicles. The unions are complicit in this, because they want to keep their members employed in well-paying jobs. What is rather amusing is that one of their excuses has been that we all need more and more advanced vehicles that get better and better fuel economy, but take no accounting at all regarding the amount of energy and the massive carbon footprint it takes to keep manufacturing vehicles.

The BEST conservationists/environmentalists are those individuals who can make what they already have last as long as possible. If that vehicle is a gas guzzler, then use that vehicle sparingly and get another vehicle that has an emphasis on fuel economy, and make that vehicle last as long as possible as well.


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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:17 pm 
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I think where we disagree is what you are suggesting is a strategy to have cars fail, and so we buy another, I'm suggesting is an economic and marketing strategy. If you were in the market for a diesel vehicle, and they said the life is 250,000 miles with good maintenance, but for $20,000 more it should run for 500,000 miles, how many people would choose the longer life option? Lift pumps and engine alloys and longer duty cycle components cost money to build.

I do respect your opinion on this, and not saying I'm right, you well may be, just has not been my impression. In fact it seems to me that many cars are relatively maintenance free for longer lifespans than a few decades ago.

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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:40 am 
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Dave01 wrote:
I think where we disagree is what you are suggesting is a strategy to have cars fail, and so we buy another, I'm suggesting is an economic and marketing strategy. If you were in the market for a diesel vehicle, and they said the life is 250,000 miles with good maintenance, but for $20,000 more it should run for 500,000 miles, how many people would choose the longer life option? Lift pumps and engine alloys and longer duty cycle components cost money to build.

I do respect your opinion on this, and not saying I'm right, you well may be, just has not been my impression. In fact it seems to me that many cars are relatively maintenance free for longer lifespans than a few decades ago.



I think then that our differences of opinion come down to what the two of us consider to be a reasonable life for a vehicle, and the costs required to increase that life significantly.

Lift pumps are cheap to manufacture and are used in most vehicles with fuel injection already; neglecting to add this to the CRD, which had an MSRP that was already higher than it should have been, amounts to penny pinching on the part of Daimler Chrysler. Casting an aluminum head is probably more expensive than casting one in nodular iron; the reason to do this was to save weight on the engine and to introduce a foreshortened life expectancy from the engine. Other longer duty cycle components are expensive, but not unreasonably so.

Cars indeed do enjoy longer lifespans than they did decades ago, but the reasons were not because of planned obsolescence or the lack of it. It has more to do with the lack of refinement in manufacturing techniques, engineering mistakes, lack of development of proper supporting systems and fluids, and other such things.

I know currently that manufacturers have the ability to produce vehicles that can easily last as long as 500,000 miles. They do not produce such vehicles for the reasons I explained above; that being planned obsolescence with the end game of getting you into another vehicle within 6 years. Although, from time to time auto manufacturers have deviated from planned obsolescence by producing vehicles that seem to never die. Dodge pickup trucks with the first and second generation Cummins 5.9L engines are perhaps the best example of this… there are 30 year old D250s still operational after well over 1,000,000 miles accumulated on them. Why is this? Because Dodge didn’t have the money at the time to develop their own consumer grade diesel engine, so they simply borrowed this relatively small diesel engine from Cummins and dropped it in the Dodge heavy duty pickup truck chassis. This engine is true commercial diesel engine… iron head, iron block with gear driven cams; just the way I like it.

Regarding planned obsolescence… employment of cheap parts designed to not last very long is one culprit I can point to. For example, one time I had the driver’s door inside handle of my 2011 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 fail on me when I was trying to exit the vehicle. I got out of the vehicle by lowering my window and releasing the door using the outside handle. When I took the vehicle to the dealership to get this handle replaced under warranty, I was SHOCKED at how thin and flimsy the release mechanism was. It was essentially a VERY thin cable that had a plastic pellet molded on the end of it that pulled a lever to release the latch. This part was sooo cheaply made they did not even use a lead ball in the end of a cable, but a small plastic ball that must of cost GM all of 1/10 of 1 penny. What bothered me was these door handles are essentially a safety item that I should be able to rely on in case I need to get out of the vehicle in an emergency… what if my truck was on fire?

Emphasis on lowering vehicle weight above all other considerations is another culprit, with the manufacturer’s advertising department espousing dubious claims of increased fuel economy with the lighter weight engine and other components. Lighter weight parts can be made quite durable, but then those parts can get expensive. Auto manufacturers tend to simply make the parts lighter and allow the consumers to put up with the shorter life expectancy of that part. I’ll take the heavier, longer lasting part; thank you.

There are three upgrades or features available to any internal combustion engine that can be employed to double or triple the life expectancy of those engines. To this I will add the caveat that these engines are of good design, are operational and have no pending failures to contend with. The technologies for these upgrades already exist, are readily available and are relatively inexpensive. All of these upgrades are already commonly found on those million dollar industrial engines I posted about earlier…

1) Install an engine preheater of some kind to preheat the engine before starting it up.

2) Install a bypass oil filter or an oil spinner to keep the engine oil perpetually clean using super fine filtering media, (good), or by separating pollutants out of oil using centrifugal force, (better).

3) Install a 12 Volt, 100% duty cycle oil pump to pre-pressurise the oiling system before starting it up.

The benefits of the above three upgrades should be apparent to all gear-heads. These are researched and well established technologies that are readily available and inexpensive to employ in all vehicles that would not increase the price of a vehicle significantly. Certainly not the $20,000.00 you were referring to, and probably not even as little as $3000.00.

The support systems I believe that would greatly extend the life of any internal combustion engine and should be mandated by the EPA to be designed into all vehicles are...

1) Fuel fired engine coolant heaters. Preheating an engine before starting it will significantly increase the life of the engine. A hot start every time is very good for your engine. Engine coolant heaters will cut down engine idling for warm-up to practically zero. Idling is currently necessary to warm up your engine before placing a load on it, but there are negative side effects of this… wear on the engine being the worst. Reduction of idling will also reduce overall emissions and fuel consumption because running a coolant heater is way more efficient than idling the engine to warm it up. Engine oil life is also extended.

Currently a Webasto Thermo Top C in the 923369 universal installation kit can be purchased for well under $1000.00 retail; if they are universally employed in all vehicles that price would drop by at least 50%; perhaps significantly more. They would also already be installed in vehicles. The EPA and CARB already recommend them, why have they not mandated them to be in all vehicles?

https://www.webasto.com/fileadmin/webas ... -top-c.pdf

2) Super fine media for filtering oil has been around for many years. Oil spinners have not been around as long, but similar devices have been used in other industries and in medicine for decades now. Kim Jong Un uses them to create weapons grade uranium, (an admittedly cheeky example). The benefits from installing either system are significant and numerous. You get much cleaner oil lubricating your engine and a better method of carrying away and trapping wear inducing pollutants out of your engine. There are far fewer oil changes, thus saving the owner money. There is also a smaller burden on the environment, and therefore should be something positive for the EPA to mandate, (for a change from the B.S. legislation they currently push!). A bypass filtering kit can be purchased from several manufacturers for well under $500.00. If kits were already installed from the factory, I suspect these parts would retail for about 30% of the current retail price.

https://www.amsoil.com/bypass/how-it-works.aspx

Oil spinners or centrifuges are between $400.00 and $1500.00, depending upon the size. The smallest spinner is a Model 25 manufactured by T.F. Hudgins Engine & Industrial Products, and its price is $452.99. However, oil spinners are currently not made for engines that are under 4 L of displacement. This makes it difficult to use them in most passenger vehicles, as spinners are designed to use the excess capacity of the engine’s lubrication circuit to run them. Go too small on the engine, and there is not enough excess capacity to run the spinner – or worse yet – you run the risk of starving your engine of needed pressurised oil. However, you CAN design a separate engine lubricating circuit to run the spinner using a 12 Volt 100% duty cycle engine oil pump that does double duty as the engine pre-lubrication pump I describe below.

http://www.spinnerii.com/index.cfm/lev1 ... fuge.Works
https://www.iowa80.com/pd/spinner-ii-25 ... ps/154022/

Oil spinners would be made in more sizes to accommodate more vehicles if this were mandated by the EPA to be put in all vehicles, with the environment’s best interests coming into play. The price would then drop dramatically due to a much larger economy of scale.

Of the two systems, the spinner is superior and does not even require the changing of filters, just the removal of the “cake” that forms on the inside of the spinner’s cover.

3) 12 Volt, 100% duty cycle engine oil pre-lubrication pumps. The benefits are obvious… pressurizing your engine’s lubrication system before it even starts eliminates a good deal of the wear on your engine. As gearheads, we have all had it drilled into our heads that most of the wear on an engine happens at start up because the bearings have no pressurized lubrication until the main oil pump has had time to deliver said pressurised oil to the bearings. A pre-lubrication system eliminates that concern.

If you are using a bypass filter, your 12 Volt pre-lubrication pump does not have to be 100% duty cycle because it does not need to run the oil spinner. The pump price can therefore be significantly less… about $250.00 for a good one. If you are running the spinner, you are going to want a 100% duty cycle pump, and they go for $400.00 to $500.00. Again the principle of economies of scale can be applied to these costs if manufacturers were to be forced to install them on vehicles, and the prices you see would drop dramatically.

http://50.62.235.225/files/pump.pdf

There you have it, Dave01; three significant upgrades that can triple the life of your CRD engine. Even with the most expensive case scenario, these three upgrades would cost you no more than $1952.99 if you are willing to do the work yourself. There are other parts to purchase, like the Sasquatch Parts battery tray that allows you to install the Webasto heater underneath the battery, hoses, a solenoid driven oil switch to re-route oil from pre-pressurizing the engine to running the spinner, some wiring to run a circuit to operate the solenoid… but I am quite sure the bill would be well under $3000.00. And that is without the benefit of economies of scale. You can half that price if all of these upgrades were already designed in to a well thought out long lasting vehicle that you could rely on to last a full 25 years.


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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:02 am 
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Personally I believe one of there biggest reasons our vehicles generally last longer than a few decades ago is the advent of importation of mainly japanese competition that drove the necessity of US manufacturers to compete with them. Vehicles like Nissan Maxima and Honda Accord come to mind the quickest.

I definitely agree with the three potentially great modifications for engine longevity but I believe the preheating of the oil/engine is probably the least beneficial of the three especially in west Tennessee and further south. I do however park my daily driver in the garage which rarely if ever gets below 32 degree.

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05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:18 pm 
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Nobody wants a car to last 500,000 miles. For the average driver, that would take 33 years to do. Nobody even wants a car to last 200,000 miles. Even if most people could keep their car in good shape that long, a 20 year old car looks dated and most people don't want that old POS sitting in their garage. And you know as well as I most people can't keep their car looking good that long - wrecked interior, stone/debris/parking-lot damaged exteriors. Most 20 year old cars, even if they run right, are not the type of thing most people want to be seen in.

Even overlooking those subjective details, cars benefit from improved power, handling, comfort, convenience and most importantly safety. Year over year, cars get better. I own some of the best cars from the last five decades (ranging from Cadillac to Mercedes) and none of them hold a candle to your average 2019 Toyota in term of what really matters. Nobody wants to mess with carburetors, twitchy handling, or the outcome of 1989 Toyota vs. 2019 Toyota in an accident. At least, not people who enjoy things like intact spinal cords and such.\

People like new, and that's what manufacturers sell them. In fact, that's precisely what cost Mercedes their spot back in the '90s. They sold the same chassis for long periods of time, and people ended up buying BMW, Lexus, and Infinity instead. It's not that those old W124s and W126s (11 years!) couldn't hang - old Mercedes last *forever* - but when Mr. Lawyer, Esq. got tired of his E320 and he went to the dealer to find they were still selling the same darn car, he bought a Lexus instead*.

People want a solid 4-6 year run with a car. A trouble free 80-100k. And then they want something different.

(*Complete lie. Everyone knows that lawyers only drive Mercedes, but you get the point.)


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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:12 pm 
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I want a 94-96 F150.
2wd, standard cab, short bed.
Preferably a Lightning.

But if I can’t find a Lightning I’ll make one :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:50 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I want a 94-96 F150.
2wd, standard cab, short bed.
Preferably a Lightning.

But if I can’t find a Lightning I’ll make one :mrgreen:


Lol, I want a 4door rubicon with 35's or bigger that can tow 5,000 lbs 20 miles up one short 7% grade. The older and cheaper the better. Until that happens I'm driving the CRD...

I agree with the safety and that most people want to have a newer car that looks good. I have the daily driver that's safe, but a it's a 2010, and then liberty is the trail and tow rig. But, I couldn't care less about what people think of my cars

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Mech fan, VH & AC delete


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 Post subject: Re: how much does block heater draw?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:50 am 
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Yeah, I like old cars too and driving my 300,000 mile old XR4Ti is nothing but smiles. But it's not for everyone, and that's cool. I can always find my ride in the parking lot. :)


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