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 Post subject: Is my CRD dead? - solved
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:37 pm 
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My liberty CRD has had a little bit of a turbo lag and some light black smoke lately. I went into the store Last week and when I came out it was running on three cylinders. I limped home and started to take a look at it. I thought at first that it was probably an injector. It appears that the number four cylinder is not firing properly. I took the number four injector and switched it with the number one injector and the injector appears to work fine when switched to #1. When I was limping back to the house the jeep smoked like a freight train with heavy black smoke. At this point I feel like it could be a stuck valve. Does anyone have a gut feeling on what this could be or what I could try? I love the jeep and I’ve had a very long time but I don’t know if I have the time and energy to consider a full rebuild.

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Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


Last edited by darinb on Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 1:08 pm 
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darinb wrote:
My liberty CRD has had a little bit of a turbo lag and some light black smoke lately. I went into the store Last week and when I came out it was running on three cylinders. I limped home and started to take a look at it. I thought at first that it was probably an injector. It appears that the number four cylinder is not firing properly. I took the number four injector and switched it with the number one injector and the injector appears to work fine when switched to #1. When I was limping back to the house the jeep smoked like a freight train with heavy black smoke. At this point I feel like it could be a stuck valve. Does anyone have a gut feeling on what this could be or what I could try? I love the jeep and I’ve had a very long time but I don’t know if I have the time and energy to consider a full rebuild.

When was the last time the timing belt was changed? Have the exhaust valves ever been replaced?
Did it at first time of failure or is it still making any kind of bad mechanical noises like metal to metal contact?

If no bad noises, other things to consider:
Maybe a bad wire in the wiring harness going to or a bad connection on the plugin for the No. 4 injector?
Could also be a bad connection for the No. 4 injector where the main harness plugs into the ECM. A few have found a tarnished pin on the ECM and had to clean it good with some very fine sandpaper.
Where in NC are you? I have a spare engine if needed. :)
Keep up posted as to what you discover.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:10 pm 
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The timing belt was last changed around 150k. No valves have never been replaced. I paid $2200 to have the engine rebuilt at 150k by a local reputable mechanic that’s been in business a long time (timing belt failure). He said he replaced all the rocker arms at that time.


Hmm that’s a good point about the wire going to the injector. I did remove the harnesses at the ecm and blew on them. I didn’t examine the pins though.

I am about 20 miles west of charlotte NC in a little town called kings mountain. If it turns out to be a valve or something serious I may be interested in that spare engine. Is it in pretty good shape?

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Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Oh and no metal on metal noises just running rough and shaking

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Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 5:48 pm 
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Get out the FSM and check the connector pins for continuity from the ECU to the injector connector.

The ECU has two transistors per injector to fire the injector so both must operator for the injector to fire, you will need an oscilloscope or Noid light testers to verify the firing signal from the ECU.

If the electrical command is good then look at a mechanical issue in the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:17 pm 
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Ok thanks I’ll pick up some noid lights and see if I can get a signal on the injector wire.

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Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:05 am 
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Excellent suggestion on the NOID test lights.
Anyone who works on electronic fuel injected vehicles should own a set of them. :wink:

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:02 pm 
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also check the intercooler hose connections though they shouldn't cause as much rough running just black smoke

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05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm 
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Much to my dismay the noid light is lighting up so it doesn't appear to be electrical. Here is a video of the jeep and the noid light:

https://youtu.be/CZNwdgSuz7E

Thanks TKB4, I have the samco intercooler hoses and they appear to be damage free and tightly connected.

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Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:23 pm 
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darinb wrote:
Much to my dismay the noid light is lighting up so it doesn't appear to be electrical. Here is a video of the jeep and the noid light:
https://youtu.be/CZNwdgSuz7E
Thanks TKB4, I have the samco intercooler hoses and they appear to be damage free and tightly connected.

Sure is pointing to a rocker problem then. :shock:
I don't believe anyone has ever reported a stuck open or burnt valve.
I sure hope you have not dropped a valve.

One other test, remove boost hose on intake side, start engine and see if compression is being blown back out of the intake at idle.
Your most likely going to have to open this engine up (pull intake.valve cover) to find the root cause. :( :banghead:

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:47 pm 
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Hey Darin - sorry I didn't see this thread sooner. It does seem like your engine may have a rocker problem. The procedure for replacing the timing belt doesn't normally include opening the valve cover, and has some fiddly parts if they didn't have the proper pins and clamps. Usually this will present fairly soon after the work is done, but if they were "close" on the timing position while not using the factory pins, the cams could drift as the belt ages in over time.

Unfortunately this means pretty much the same work needs to be done again. If you would like assistance on this, I am the traveling CRD tech, this is the only vehicle I work on. I've seen about 80 of them now, and pulling the top end off is a one-day job for me. I bring everything needed for the work and do the work wherever your CRD happens to be. All I need is a relatively level parking place. Email (button below) is preferred to the PM system as I don't always get the notifications. If you would like my assistance, I'm happy to put together a quote for you.

--Jim

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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:15 am 
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Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


Last edited by darinb on Wed May 22, 2019 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:20 pm 
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darinb wrote:
Don’t really want to deal with the repair.. Anybody want to buy a project CRD?? PM me if so...

Sent you a PM.

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:42 pm 
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So I decided to man up and break the engine down lol. Doesn’t appear to be any internal damage. The cylinder that wasnt firing looks different than the others

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmKKM7MzPjNogdA7CGaPhpD08jDz2g

Some buildup on the bottom of the valves

What’s the best way to check for valve movement? Thought about tapping on the top with a hammer but don’t want to damage anything.

I have done a head gasket repair on a Volvo so I am familiar with lapping valves replacing seals and keepers but this is the first time with a diesel.

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Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:39 pm 
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That's a LOT of gunk on #4... Looks to me like either it hasn't been getting the air to combust or there's definitely something off about that injector. Have you had it tested? Were the rockers on that cylinder intact?

As for the valves - you have the thing pulled apart, don't worry about the old valves, CHANGE THEM OUT. Especially with the cylinders looking that way, the engine has been running rich for a while. The problem is that the stems suffer from the temperature and get brittle. Replacement solves this, but this is also a great time to fully delete the EGR and prevent THAT particular problem from affecting the air fuel ratio and cylinder temps in the future. Installing ARP studs and new glow plugs on the way back up to a running engine completes the bulletproofing and you will have a happy engine for a long time to come.

You want the two-hole head gasket from IDparts, and conveniently they have everything else you will need as well, except for the EGR kit. That's available on Ebay, get the better kit that has the two-piece elbow with the silicone collar, it comes with the coolant bypass and the manifold seal as well. You shouldn't need to replace the guides, but DO clean everything and lap the new valves in as you install them... Then clean everything some more. In the cases of some really gummy valve guides, I've chased them with a soft copper bore brush on a drill, and LOTS of brake cleaner. You want them clean, but it may be a LOT faster to remove all the valves, save the keepers and springs in a can (they are not special, just don't lose any) and have a machine shop hot-tank the head. If you are game, doing the upper intake also will make things nice and pretty.

The valve guides and the seats are pressed-in to the head, I generally advise against messing with them unless there is a REALLY good reason, they don't go bad but the pressing forces can crack the head if things aren't positioned right.

It looks like the oil is pretty gummy, how often is it changed? The excess soot load from that #4 cylinder has definitely not been helping that engine stay clean.

Seal all four surfaces (both sides of the gasket, and the block and head) with copper coat spray, your local auto store will have it, probably with a different product name. But it is spray copper. Then install the ARP studs and clamp everything down, and the engine will be happy and leak-free from then on.

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TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:02 am 
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Hi thanks for the reply. I haven’t had the injectors checked but I think I’m going to take them to a shop to have that done. Yes the rockers were in tact on cylinder 4. I’m curious if the intake valve is stuck and not letting enough air in? I didn’t see any broken rockers which kinda surprised me.

Right now I’m thinking (considering what you said) replacing valves, gaskets, add arp studs, putting the egr removal kit on.. I also did the DIY egr delete Ecu flash a while back. Should I replace the rockers if they aren’t broken? Or just check them for play?

The oil has been changed pretty regularly. I always use full synthetic too. It was around 40 degrees outside when I took the photo so the oil is a little thicker due to temperature. I was surprised how gelled the oil looked too.

I’ll see if I can find a shop around here that will hot tank the head

_________________
Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:18 am 
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Would have been nice to have a mass air flow reading for the rocker function while it was running. How many miles are on it now?
How many miles ago was the timing belt Engine rebuild done?
What work was done at the rebuild?
If the work was done in the last 2 years or maybe more and he did anything other than water pump and Timing belt service such as replacing head gasket he probably should have changed the rockers then . Its very difficult to tell from the pics, but if the rockers were changed recently then they should be the new style. The old style has a crimped on top portion and the new version has no crimp and at bottom has a taper to the end (actually the lifter portion). If you can't tell you could post a pic and its possible only some could have been replaced. Perhaps if you have the bill from the mechanics service it would indicate what parts we're paid for etc. Though he wouldn't absolutely have to there should be at least a charge for the intake gasket and elbow gaskets and manifold gaskets if he removed the valvecover. If he did all that and replaced the rockers too he is very reasonably priced but I suspect he only did the timing belt and hopefully water pump service. I would replace all the rockers/lifters anyway but especially if not the new type. You can definitely tell if there is rocker wear . Just hold the bearing and push on the rest if there is essentially any movement replace them. You can check several and should be able to tell some differences. If you post pic of cleaned up lifter/rocker we could tell you if its new style or not. You also need to check cam lobes for excessive wear or groving but generally this will be pretty obvious. When reassembling I recommend using bolts with cut off heads correct length to align the valvecover correctly. You will see what I mean when you get to that point I use 3 but some use 2, so you might want to order some or you can get the ones to make the guide bolts from Lowes etc. Make sure they will protrude from the intake enough to be removed. I put them only in enter holes near injector cups to enable them to be short enough to clear firewall easier and still be removable with fingers or pliers afterwards.

i know you said you changed the oil and used full synthetic but it must be Diesel Rated and Most Here do not recommend the 0w-40. Better to use at least 5w-40 or even 15w-40. for example . Do not use Mobil 1 0w-40 or 5w-40. The correct Mobil 1 product would be 5w-40 Turbo Diesel one that is sold as 4 quart containers not the 5 quart size. Many use Rotella T6 5w-40 or 15w-40 or Others.

:SOMBRERO: A very important point: When you reassemble the engine use a New Timing Belt no matter how many miles are on the current timing belt !!!

make sure the previous Timing belt job replaced all Idlers TB Tensioner and water pump and if its been many miles say 50,000 miles or more I would go ahead and change those on reassembly. Remember you will need other parts to reassemble also such as seal and copper washer for injectors. These parts can be purchased separately but ID parts and Sasquatch have the Head Gasket kits that makes it easier though at times not cheaper . One main difference is some of the kits have Chrysler Head gasket and the less expensive one is sold separately for sure and the one they sell is good quality.

Double and triple check the timing pins and the crank pin after reassembly.

So clean up everything thoroughly , replace head gasket using copperkote type product using ARP studs and new gaskets etc. ,replace rockers and all valves especially exhaust valves. I recommend getting head checked for flatness and cracks also. EGR mod already mentioned and hopefully after about 12 more hours work and around $1500 to 2000 you will have a "bulletproofed" CRD engine for another 150 to 200k or more miles

_________________
05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II 245/75/17, KC Lights, bull bar, 195K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 , 210K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 126K wkII Eur TC
05 D khaki Lim 145k refurbishing
All CRDS: Fumoto, Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head Gen II, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:36 am 
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Thanks so much for the help

The jeep currently has 280,000 miles on it. At the time the mechanic said he replaced all the rocker arms, timing belt and the head gasket it was at 120,000 miles. After seeing the amount of work needed to do this I am questioning whether he replaced all the rockers considering that the charge was 2200. Thank you for the heads up about the cut off bolts to line up the valve cover. I watched a YouTube video where a guy was really struggling getting the valve cover lined up. I was worried about how that was going to pan out.

Considering the current rocker arms have 150k on them I’ll go ahead and replace all of them. Here’s a pic of one : https://1drv.ms/f/s!AmKKM7MzPjNogdBHG7eVx3RuBtJNGg

Does it look like a newer one?

I’ll also clean up the camshafts and post a pic

Also do you know arp stud torque spec off the top of your head? I have an angle gauge if needed.

Updated list:
valves
gaskets
arp studs
egr removal kit
Water pump
Rockers
T belt
Copper spray

_________________
Stone White 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
273,000 miles
Original Owner (well technically it was my wife's originally but I knew I would get it one day *evil laugh*)
Samcos
Weeks EGR kit
Nick's 811 Stage 1 tune (vers 1.01)
Silicone vacuum lines
Bilstein suspension
Provent


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:38 pm 
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That lifter is one of the newer design, you can tell easily b/c of the tapered bottom. If you have a mix, then the mechanic was an idiot b/c the labor is the same to change one or all sixteen.

As for the ARP torque, there will be directions from IDparts in the box, but the final torque is 130 lb-ft for the center rows, and 120 lb-ft for the outside rows. Since this is a new gasket install and the head was removed, you need to do it in stages. Install all the studs into the block until they bottom, then back them off a half-turn. Use ARP lube ONLY on the narrow threads, and on the face of the nut. The washer to the head doesn't get any, and neither do the wide threads in the block.

Follow the factory pattern and torque everything to 50 lbs. Go around the pattern again and bring them to 80 lbs. Once more to 100 lbs.

NOW it gets tricky. One by one, loosen the nut COMPLETELY and re-set the stud in the hole - bring the nut to flush with the top of the stud, and then turn the stud to either bottom-minus-half-turn OR until the nut contacts the head and is hand tight. There has been some variation on this based on differences in the engines and changes in the stud lengths. What you want is at final torque, only 1-2 threads above the top of the nut. Once the stud is positioned hand-tight with the nut flush with the top of the stud - go right to full torque of either 130 or 120. That one is done, move on to the next and repeat the final adjustment.

On your parts list, don't forget the seals you will need: 4 injector crush washers (you should get these free from the injector shop when you have them tested), 4 o-rings for the injectors, turbo drain gasket and grommet, turbo oil supply crush washers, turbo manifold gasket, intake gasket, and the thermostat gasket. I always forget the thermostat gasket when ordering. If you have removed the exhaust manifold from the head, then you will need the exhaust gasket too - AND strongly consider replacing the studs from both the turbo and the head with grade 12.9 metric studs! What is in there from the factory is SO SOFT and you will likely have already broken at least one. The machine shop is your friend here, they can extract these nasty things and chase the holes / install the new ones so you are good to go.

Another thought. Aluminum anti-seize is your friend, especially on the glow plugs. HOWEVER remember that this will greatly reduce the "feel" of the torque, so don't overtighten things! The glow plugs drop down to MAYBE 10 ft-lbs when covered in that aluminum snot.

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TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 225 CRDs currently driving with my valves, timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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 Post subject: Re: Is my CRD dead?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:31 pm 
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Gordo, You forgot mention about spraying the head gasket with Copper Coat or Permatex High Tack before assembly. :wink:

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Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
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GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
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98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve


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