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"indicated overheating"
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43345		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  CRDMiller [ Wed May 20, 2009 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  "indicated overheating"
Ok, i've read, and made, posts about this before, however;

Ac was on for all of these photo's


This I can see as "indicated overheating"
This is 70 mph (gps) in fifth gear (really sixth) at 1900 rpm on the nose.
Temp is at 1.5 "pips" over 75%

Image

ALL of the images to follow are AFTER the needle had hit the RED
And i began to slow down. i had been cruising at 65 in top gear at 1700.

I can take these grades no problem at these speeds, in top gear. (except for the thermal issues)

This is 64+ (gps) in fourth (just dropped out of fifth)

Image

These are around 60 mph in fourth

Image
Image <--broken thumbnail?
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2282/p1010198uqj.jpg

Image <-- another broken thumb?
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9265/p1010199k.jpg

Punched it for fun.

Image

Sorry for the blurry images, it was in scene mode and not auto, was set up for something else, hard to grab while driving :P.

The ac never turned itself off. The motor never derated. The chimes never sounded.

This seems like more than indicated overheating. (remember these are after i hit the red)

To summarize, yes these grades are no joke, but i have driven many other vehicles in worse conditions here, w/o any thermal issues. (it was only around 80f there today and it gets 120+) If you look close you can see the "radiator water" signs on the side of the road.

I dont like this. I was not even towing anything.
Author:  chrispitude [ Wed May 20, 2009 8:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Boy, that's hard to understand. When I was towing our 27' travel trailer (5000lbs), the temp needle moved to about halfway between middle and hot only after a couple miles of sustained high boost in fourth gear up a grade - and that was with the Inmotion tune and no ORM, which meant that the blazing hot exhaust was getting redirected back into the engine. I never pegged the gauge or heard/saw any other indicators. After that, I have a tough time understanding how you could do *anything* to an unloaded CRD which could budge the needle.

Not that I am arguing with what you're experiencing, mind you - I just think it means it's got to be attributable to *something* other than lack of designed cooling capacity in the engine.

- Chris
Author:  click23 [ Wed May 20, 2009 9:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Have you had TSB 08-043-05 performed?

"Engine Temperature Gauge - Indicator Reads A Higher Temperature Than Actual

OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves reprogramming the instrument cluster control (CCN) module.

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may notice that the engine temperature gauge may indicate that the engine temperature is high. In hot ambient temperatures, and under certain driving conditions of extended uphill driving while towing a trailer, the engine temperature indicator may indicate slightly above the 3/4 normal operating temperature mark on the temperature gauge (but below the engine hot temperature markings). This condition may be caused by an incorrect calibration of the of the engine temperature gauge. "
Author:  JL Rockies [ Wed May 20, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject: 
I have the same issue especially on one grade going from ID back into UT on 1 15. I plan to add a trans cooler this spring.
Author:  linewarbr [ Wed May 20, 2009 5:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
I noticed in your sig that you have an EGR plate and the FCV removed. Could that have anything to do with it?

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=22702

I was perusing the Tech forum and came across this. How did you account for the coolant inflow/ outflow when you put the EGR plate in?
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed May 20, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "indicated overheating"
CRDMiller wrote:
Ok, i've read, and made, posts about this before, however;

Ac was on for all of these photo's


This I can see as "indicated overheating"
This is 70 mph (gps) in fifth gear (really sixth) at 1900 rpm on the nose.
Temp is at 1.5 "pips" over 75%

The ac never turned itself off. The motor never derated. The chimes never sounded.

This seems like more than indicated overheating. (remember these are after i hit the red)

To summarize, yes these grades are no joke, but i have driven many other vehicles in worse conditions here, w/o any thermal issues. (it was only around 80f there today and it gets 120+) If you look close you can see the "radiator water" signs on the side of the road.

I dont like this. I was not even towing anything.


I'm guessing your talking about crossing the long up grades across the california desert on I15 or so.......

My dad just recently did this trip towing a uhaul trailer in the CRD, he has pretty much the same experience as you, the jeep wasn't actually overheating, the gauge was just reading crazy.
Author:  0311_DoC [ Wed May 20, 2009 5:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
JL Rockies wrote:
I have the same issue especially on one grade going from ID back into UT on 1 15. I plan to add a trans cooler this spring.


Mine does the same thing when the a/c has been on and not towing.. Is the tranny cooler really gone help? cuz I don't wanna have a break down on the way to Ouray this summer. Plus I will be towing my 5X8 trailer since the KJ will be loaded up with the kids.
Author:  vtdog [ Wed May 20, 2009 6:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Have the TSB for the temp done. It is a fix that actually works. If you still have the problem after the tsb fix then you know something else is wrong and can investigate further
Author:  0311_DoC [ Wed May 20, 2009 6:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
vtdog wrote:
Have the TSB for the temp done. It is a fix that actually works. If you still have the problem after the tsb fix then you know something else is wrong and can investigate further


when did that TSB come out? cuz as far as I know I have had them all done...
Author:  ChileanKJ [ Wed May 20, 2009 6:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
How do you get 70mph with 1900 revs? do you have the 545RFE ? or stick? I have 245/75R16 BF AT, 4.10 gears and RFE545 and at 1900RPM and I get 62mph aprox (100KM/H).
Author:  vtdog [ Wed May 20, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
The tsb dates to 2005. I got mine in the spring of '05 and first had the problem with the hot weather that summer. The dealer did the fix probably in june/july of that year. Since the fix, I have had no issues with the temp. It is my understanding that the temp tsb fix is a separate update and not included with others like the f31/37, but I am not positive about that and others may know better.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed May 20, 2009 7:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
ChileanKJ wrote:
How do you get 70mph with 1900 revs? do you have the 545RFE ? or stick? I have 245/75R16 BF AT, 4.10 gears and RFE545 and at 1900RPM and I get 62mph aprox (100KM/H).


All US CRDs have the 545RFE and 3.73s
Author:  JL Rockies [ Wed May 20, 2009 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I feel that since I can go anywhere I want @ 75 MPH or towing with no problems until I hit a long steep grade I feel it's the tranny getting hot. Since the OEM cooler is all connected with the radiator and close to the intercooler, I feel heat soak is the problem.
Author:  CRDMiller [ Wed May 20, 2009 8:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok, alot of stuff going on here, I'll go from the top.

chrispitude Says 'something else may be wrong' This is what i'm hoping for, because I rather spend the dough to do everything i can to "freshen" the cooling system, than actually overheat, or go to the freaking dealership, That said, in 30k miles, it only "overheats" on this pass. I can drive from San Diego to Vegas w/o budging the needle (and without loosing fifth gear) I've driven from San Diego to Flordia and it never budged. (except for this pass) I don't even in the slightest think that it's under designed cooling, at all. I think something is wrong.

click23 Asks if I have had the "indicated overheating" tsb preformed; To my knowledge, i have not. I really want to not go to the dealership. I don't have a warranty and those retards took 3 hours to program the speedo for my new tiers, (witch might i add is still significantly WRONG at speeds over 40 mph but at least i dont have to go 75 to get it to shift into fifth) and charged me 260 dollars to boot. It takes about 10 minutes tops to preform this service. I Rather have a problem that i can fix myself, than have to use them. I hate them. I HATE them.

JL RockiesMentions a Trans cooler; excellent idea, and i'm looking into it also, BUT, i really don't want the btu dumped in to the IC so i'm looking at alternate locations. I also wheel so it is going to be a challenge.

linewarbr asks about 'additional cooling load due to fcv removal and egr plate' I dont know how i could experience anything but reduced thermal load, because there is no egr to be cooled, there is no heat injection in to the cooling system at that point. The fcv simply can no longer divert (choke fresh air) in hopes that egr will flow in (it's blocked). Am i missing something?

Sir Sam, Asks about the location of the grade and conveys a similar experience; It's like 6%+ grade for 12 miles on the I8 between San Diego County (Boulevard CA) and Imperial County (Plaster City CA)

0311_DoC ponders over a trans coolers's impact; The trans cooler cant hurt. But having it in front of the IC? Eah.

vtdog thinks i should stfu and get the tsb; that's basically the logical progression on this, but, I HATE the dealership. HATE THEM. I rather overheat.. almost. I will proally end up taking it in in the next few months or so, i just hate them. I hate them. HATE.

ChileanKJ asks about the revs and rpm; Yes I have the 545rfe, with 3.73 gears, and 235/85/r16 shoes. It's a really nice combination.



My guess is that pegging the boost at 20-24 psi for 10 + miles introduces a LOAD more btu into the cooling system than normal operation, where i'm at around 5 psi. I don't think it's excessive for the system, i think my temp sensor is improperly calibrated. I don't know any place that can properly calibrate my sensor/cluster. Yes i may have some mud and junk packed in between my radiators, and no that does not help. Having such low revs is probably not so good for the trans load either. There are alot of not so ideal things happening, but the bottom line is I should be able to book through there with no problems, hauling 5k. (ok maby a little slowly but yeah)

Thanks for your advice and whatnot =)

Is there a good write up on the cooling shroud trick? Supposed to be some way that you can cut your shroud so that you can easily remove it? (so that you can clean your stacks? change your fan clutch and change your timing belt)

Edited grammar/spelling.
Author:  loric [ Wed May 20, 2009 8:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Have you run the test of the viscous coupling on the fan?
(thermocouple test outlined in the FSM).

I had similar probs, my viscous coupling was borderline according to the test procedure.
Did the TSB for the temp gauge - helped a lot (as in needle wouldn't get in the red as often), but still got hot sometimes.

After I replaced the hub, everything has been fine. (e.g climbing at fast walking pace in 41C temps (106F) - previously the gauge would hit red zone, but now doesn't go much above halfway)

Mine is an 05 CRD, possibly in the dodgy batch of viscous hubs
Author:  CRDMiller [ Wed May 20, 2009 9:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have done the hand test and it seemed fine, i just read the rest of it, using plastic and so forth to cover the grille, and my question is this, where exactly do i insert this thermometer? (this seems like a bad idea) is it in front of the blades or between the stacks?> or what.
Author:  gmctd [ Wed May 20, 2009 9:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Put an SGII on it, monitor the actual ECT as the ECM sees it, compare that to the Temp Guage indication - that can be done in PARK, sitting still
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Wed May 20, 2009 9:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
CRDMiller,

I'm more concerned about the fact that you're cruising at those speeds seeing 20psi boost. That means the ECU would be seeing 3bar since the sensor is measuring absolute pressure (so take gauge and add another 14.7psi). At those boost pressures, the turbo is vastly outside of its efficiency range and, more importantly, is overspeeding the turbo by a large margin which means you're risking failure. For sure if you're cruising in this conditions, your intake air temps are probably way too high which could cause some warmer-than-usual conditions.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed May 20, 2009 9:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sir Sam, Asks about the location of the grade and conveys a similar experience; It's like 6%+ grade for 12 miles on the I8 between San Diego County (Boulevard CA) and Imperial County (Plaster City CA)[/quote]

Yes that sounds like those long stretches along I15 heading to vegas out of LA.

I would check and see if you have had that temp gauge TSB done or not.
Author:  CRDMiller [ Thu May 21, 2009 12:29 am ]
Post subject: 
MrMopar64,

It greatly disturbs me, that you find 20+ psi to be to high of a boost pressure.

This would indicate to me that anyone with an in motion stage II tune would be in deep trouble. I have 33k on mine.

The in motion tune is supposed to be the same as the stock euro tune.
I assume that when things were tested, they were tested with said programming by Jeep.

Pre f37 supposedly people were seeing up to 25 psi, the highest i have ever seen is about 23.

All of this is bad?


ALSO i followed the fsm on the clutch testing, however i removed the electric fan relay's, i also used my fia winter front and then taped plastic sheeting over the front. I hit 202f (per my 8 inch digital thermometer) and noticed no roaring etc of any kind. I just now checked the fsm and it says 205 is the upper, so i will test again soon, on a hot day (it was 71 when i started and cooling down) Right now i would have to say it was a failure. This is good. I would love to replace the fan clutch (i know it's kinda a pita, but it's good to know that it's a reliable unit)
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