General Bio D Questions

rhljeep · **Joined:** Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:34 pm **Posts:** 49

Greetings all,

Since asking a question weeks ago about bio d on your site here my wife and I purchased an 05 CRD with 13K. Hope to eventually be able to make our own fuel, but have had 3 fillings of bio d now (purchased here in Seattle), with about B80. As we are new to the bio d/ CRD community, just wondering if anyone could share advice with us as to do's and don'ts, problems, etc.

We know we will probably need to change the fuel filter soon, and have accepted that there may be complications with the warranty, but would love to know othere details.

Many thanks

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:14 pm

If you haven't done so already, check out http://www.biodiesel.org/multimedia/audiovideo/

offroadsubaru · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:22 pm

Here is a Liberty owner and forum member who runs on 100% bio: http://www.biodieseljeep.com/

Special Agent · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:44 pm

I'm at 6K miles on my Biodiesel CRD.

I've run MOSTLY B99 (about 9 fillups out of 10). I have also run the tank down to empty and then filled up with DinoDiesel for a few tanks to see the difference. And right now I'm trying a tank of B20 just for fun.

Here's what I have found:

The CRD is harder to start on B99. It takes several more "cranks" from the starter engine to get going. This is worse in cold weather, but noticeable even on warm days. BioD is just thicker than diesel. You stop noticing the hard-starting when you drop to B50 or less.

Usually, it is a "3-one-thousand" count before it starts. With regular diesel, I usually can't get past "One-one-thousand" count unless it is very cold.

In cold weather, a cloud of pure white smoke will occasionally belch out when the engine catches- smells like french fries!

Gas Mileage is impacted to the tune of 1-2mph. I drive about 80% streets, 20% highway and get about 19mpg averaged. On long highway trips on B99, I'll get up around 24-25mpg. So my personal mileage hasn't been that great, but the engine is still breaking in.

With pure Dino-diesel, just add 1-2 mpgs to those figures.

I never had to change fuel filters because I bought the car new with 1 mile on it and B5 in the tank. First five fillups where B99!

Other than the hard starts and fuel mileage drop, there have been NO PROBLEMS with running biodiesel.

I'll prolly scale back to B50 for the winter, just to save the battery. I believe there is a timing issue on the CRD with biodiesel and hope that someday we have a chip or flash for people who run high-biodiesel fuel content. Since the ignition points are different for different fuels, some gearhead/techie could probably "fix" the hard start and gas mileage issues on the CRD, but that might take some time.

Good luck, lemme know if you have any more questions.

TDICRD58 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:29 pm **Posts:** 21

I would not run B100 in my engine. I work for a major diesel engine manufacturer and the position of our engineers (and Bosch who made and warrant's your common rail) is that there will be no warranty reimbursement for fuel related failures running higher than a B20 blend.
Even the US Government DOE position is that 100% bio is not compatable with cold weather. Yes if you start the engine on diesel, have a heated bio tank, and then switch back to diesel before shutdown (to purge the system of bio since it gels at around 40 degrees F) you can make it work, but it's a lot of effort.
The engine manufacturers would love to use higher bio blends (remember it's good for the farmer, environment and the US is the largest bio mass producer) but the fuel and injection control technology is just not there yet. It's worse on the common rail than it is on conventional injectors due to the 25,000 psi operating pressures and the associated extremely tiny orfices.
If you read some of the other comments on this website you will find other CRD owners who have had DC dealers sniff their fuel and exhaust fumes if they have driveability problems.
I'm sure some bio advocates will argue otherwise, but ask your dealer what the warranty does and does not cover............

DZL_LOU · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:57 pm

TDICRD58 wrote:

I would not run B100 in my engine. I work for a major diesel engine manufacturer and the position of our engineers (and Bosch who made and warrant's your common rail) is that there will be no warranty reimbursement for fuel related failures running higher than a B20 blend.
Even the US Government DOE position is that 100% bio is not compatable with cold weather. Yes if you start the engine on diesel, have a heated bio tank, and then switch back to diesel before shutdown (to purge the system of bio since it gels at around 40 degrees F) you can make it work, but it's a lot of effort.
The engine manufacturers would love to use higher bio blends (remember it's good for the farmer, environment and the US is the largest bio mass producer) but the fuel and injection control technology is just not there yet. It's worse on the common rail than it is on conventional injectors due to the 25,000 psi operating pressures and the associated extremely tiny orfices.

I don't work as a diesel engine manufacturer or remotely know of someone who does nor do I use bio. But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night..........................
C'mon, no one currently from a manufacturers standpoint wants to warranty bio. It's too new and too easy to blame if your in the warranty business.
Aside from cold start issues that can be addressed with PS cetane boost and anti-jell, I can't agree with your assertion of bio having detrimental effects on CRD (Common Rail Diesel) technology and injector pressures. The literature is absent on that opinion. Can you show to the contra? I would like to educate myself to that assertion.

litton · **Posted:** Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:04 pm

Actually bio has been around for quite awile. I started using it in my boat ~10 years ago and Detroit was already issuing cautions about too high of a blend ratio. It seem that they felt about 10 % was the max for long term usage. Of course my engine was old enough where there were concerns about o-rings and etc.

Personally, I have a lot of confidence it the engineering assessments done by the engine manufactureres...they don't have an vested interest in anything but their engines. If DCX says 5% max, I'll believe them until they release new data.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:14 am

My only Bio source is B20 and when I asked my service department about the 5% their response was that they would not be testing my fuel beyond checking for french fries floating in it. With respect to clouding or jelling, I live in a cold climate. We have B20 here at one distributor because a local school district was running a DOE pilot project on Bio. I ran a tank in December when temps were in the teens with no trouble. The school district, on the other hand, had to stop the project at that time because of jelling in their non common rail engines.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

but the fuel and injection control technology is just not there yet. It's worse on the common rail than it is on conventional injectors due to the 25,000 psi operating pressures and the associated extremely tiny orfices.

Your assertions leave out an extremely important fact - the diesel injection manufacturers, Bosch, Siemens, Denso, sell lots of diesel vehicles in Europe, running and supporting B100 biodiesel in common rail engines. It's not biodiesel, it's the certification, specification and quality control that the US biodiesel industry is lacking just yet, but working on.

If you look at the diesel engine specifications, including viscosity, ASTM spec biodiesel falls into the high end, but still within the viscosity spec. Oxidation stability and purity is the main issue being worked out as we converse. Many TDI owners, using B100 on PD engines running at 29,000 psi with injector orifices as small as those on our CRD's are and have been running BXX for quite a while, without issue. Bad bio, or bad D2 will cause problems on nearly any modern diesel engine. The same manufacters are supporting biodiesel in Europe, with a well defined biodiesel specification and qc on its production. Same injection equipment as ours in the US.

The key aspect to running biodiesel is being informed and willing to accept responsibility if the fuel system fails due to a bad batch of bio. But the same caveat applies to D2. Diesel fuel related failures are specifically excluded by Bosch, Denso and Siemens in regard to D2.

If you run bio, in general you should buy it from an ASTM spec supplier who can take responsibility for fuel related failures. Using bio of untested quality that someone made in their garage is a risk that should be taken only by those willing to pay for their own fuel equipment failures.

TDICRD58 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:29 pm **Posts:** 21

Here is the official position of some of the "big boys" of diesel power:

What is Cummins position on biodiesel fuel?
Biodiesel blends up to B5 are approved for use in all Cummins engines for both on-highway and off-highway engines. B5 is a blend of 5 percent pure biodiesel and 95 percent standard petroleum diesel. Cummins believes that blends greater than B5 are possible and appropriate. The industry standard known as ASTM D6751 defines the specifications for B100. However, this standard currently lacks a specification for stability. Without a specification for stability, the quality of fuel in blends greater than B5 could degrade to a point which could be damaging to engines.

John Deere recommendations
Biodiesel blend up to B5 (5% biodiesel mixed with regular petrodiesel by volume) can be used in John Deere diesel engines, provided that the neat biodiesel or B100 meets ASTM D 6751 (USA) or EN 14214 (Europe) specification.

Biodiesel blend above B5 could have increasingly more performance related issues. The higher the biodiesel concentration, the more likely the risk associated with its negative aspects. There is no industry standard to regulate the quality & performance of biodiesel blend at this time. In particular, certain properties of biodiesel blend may deviate significantly from its B100 and petrodiesel characteristics. For this reason, higher biodiesel blends over B5 can have increasingly negative effect in diesel engines.

AZ CRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:18 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

but the fuel and injection control technology is just not there yet. It's worse on the common rail than it is on conventional injectors due to the 25,000 psi operating pressures and the associated extremely tiny orfices.

Your assertions leave out an extremely important fact - the diesel injection manufacturers, Bosch, Siemens, Denso, sell lots of diesel vehicles in Europe, running and supporting B100 biodiesel in common rail engines. It's not biodiesel, it's the certification, specification and quality control that the US biodiesel industry is lacking just yet, but working on.

If you look at the diesel engine specifications, including viscosity, ASTM spec biodiesel falls into the high end, but still within the viscosity spec. Oxidation stability and purity is the main issue being worked out as we converse. Many TDI owners, using B100 on PD engines running at 29,000 psi with injector orifices as small as those on our CRD's are and have been running BXX for quite a while, without issue. Bad bio, or bad D2 will cause problems on nearly any modern diesel engine. The same manufacters are supporting biodiesel in Europe, with a well defined biodiesel specification and qc on its production. Same injection equipment as ours in the US.

The key aspect to running biodiesel is being informed and willing to accept responsibility if the fuel system fails due to a bad batch of bio. But the same caveat applies to D2. Diesel fuel related failures are specifically excluded by Bosch, Denso and Siemens in regard to D2.

If you run bio, in general you should buy it from an ASTM spec supplier who can take responsibility for fuel related failures. Using bio of untested quality that someone made in their garage is a risk that should be taken only by those willing to pay for their own fuel equipment failures.

Exactly.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

Here is the official position of some of the "big boys" of diesel power:

Cummins and John Deere may be "big boys" in the US but not quite the players in Europe. However, you can cruise over to tdiclub and read the post of a list of European TDI engines certified by VW for biodiesel use. Same fuel injection equipment they use in the US TDI engines. Different spec fuel.

If the "big boys" put half the effort into helping get the standards ratified as they do objecting to biodiesel use, stonewalling and publishing cya docs, they could actually end up being part of the engery solution instead of what they are now.

TDICRD58 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:29 pm **Posts:** 21

I happen to spend 10 to 12 weeks a year in Europe on business. Mostly UK, Italy and Germany. All of the rental cars in Europe are diesel unless you request otherwise. I don't see very much biodiesel over there, and I am driving cars constantly, probably 10 K a year in Europe.

Yes there are pockets (particularly in Germany) that are big on bio, but it's not that widespread in usage as you would lead the reader to believe.

The whole world is interested in bio, we have a lot of learning and improvements to do in fuel quality before it's truly commercially viable to do B100 (particularly in cold climates), and the manufacturers in Europe ARE NOT openly endorsing B100.

That is why no reputable diesel engine builder is openly endorsing the B100 fantasy.

I know, I work for one of the biggest European diesel engine manufacturers and we discuss this stuff every day..............

AZ CRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:46 pm

TDICRD58 wrote:

I happen to spend 10 to 12 weeks a year in Europe on business. Mostly UK, Italy and Germany. All of the rental cars in Europe are diesel unless you request otherwise. I don't see very much biodiesel over there, and I am driving cars constantly, probably 10 K a year in Europe.

Yes there are pockets (particularly in Germany) that are big on bio, but it's not that widespread in usage as you would lead the reader to believe.

The whole world is interested in bio, we have a lot of learning and improvements to do in fuel quality before it's truly commercially viable to do B100 (particularly in cold climates), and the manufacturers in Europe ARE NOT openly endorsing B100.

That is why no reputable diesel engine builder is openly endorsing the B100 fantasy.

I know, I work for one of the biggest European diesel engine manufacturers and we discuss this stuff every day..............

Stop whining, Nellie. Biodiesel represents 21% of all fuel sold in Germany. The only "fantasy" is perpetually cheap petroleum supply.

litton · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:53 pm

I have to ask a question but bear in mind that I am a new to diesel autos.

What is the advantage in running anything over 10....perhaps 20 %?

I ran bio years ago in my Detroit 3-53 boat engine and truely don't understand why anyone wants to run high concentrations. There appears to be no advantages in cost, performance, or mileage once you get past the 5-10% range. I admit that it's a good talking point but it seem there is a diminishing return as the percentage increases.

I am open to being educated but right now, with the engineering info available, it doesn't seem to make sense.

dmv · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:55 pm

I run B100 in all 3 of my Diesel vehicles and except for cold weather starts, I have had nothing but positive results. as far as I am concerned the positives by far out weigh the negatives, so far.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

That is why no .... engine builder is endorsing

Then what is this list below? VW is their own engine builder.

Once an appropiate biodiesel spec is approved for B100 in North America and suppliers start using it, engine builders will be dragged, kicking and screaming into supporting its use. Just like they have been with certain municiple government fleet vehicles, forced by non-attainment with EPA air pollution for their cities, into using biodiesel to help avoid the loss of federal tax revenue. Once the first engine builder starts supporting it, the others will follow, afraid of losing business to those who do.

Taken from TDIclub:
Default biodiesel in North America vs. Europe
I am doing some research into biodiesel and are considering buying a vw tdi (not sure yet which model).

Since biodiesel is more widely available in Europe, I happened to run into some interesting german websites.

To my big surprise, there seems to be a difference in how far vw approves biodiesel (and here I mean the B100) in their cars. In North America it seems that vw 'officially' suggests B5 mix or lower.

In Europe however it seems that biodiesel (100%) has been officially ok'd for quite a few engines. Here is a translated list:

beetle convertible: since introduction
beetle diesel: since introduction
bora (aka jetta): since introduction in 1998
caddy II (?): since KW 23/1996
golf (incl. IV model): since 1996
golf ecomatic (type 1 HXO): from #1 HRP 491791
golf V diesel: only with RME-upgrade cost Eur.195
LT-2 (?) diesel: since introduction
lupo diesel: since introduction
passat diesel: since 9/1995 (please contact vw for Passat B7)
phaeton diesel: since introduction
polo diesel: since 9/1995
sharan (?) diesel: since model year 1997
T4 diesel: from # 70 TH 0122127/ from # 70 TX 0199981
T5 diesel: since introduction (without (somesortof)heater)
Touareg R5 TDI andV10 TDI: since introduction
Touran diesel: NOT BIODIESEL COMPATIBLE
Vento (aka jetta): since 1996

this list comes from www.biodiesel.de and the data supposedly was provided by Volkswagen.

And I guess Mercedes, Mann and VW forgot to consult you on B100 usage for these engines:

From http://www.bioroute.co.uk/biodiesel.htm

Manufacturers such as Mercedes in their BR 300, 400, 500 and 900 series engines, DAF in their LF, CF and XF Models and MAN Trucks, VW / Audi Group have all approved certain models and engine types to use B100 (pure Biodiesel).

litton · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:08 pm

dmv wrote:

I run B100 in all 3 of my Diesel vehicles and except for cold weather starts, I have had nothing but positive results. as far as I am concerned the positives by far out weigh the negatives, so far.

But what are the positives? Once again, please forgive my ignorance as I am trying to determine the best fuel to fun in my new CRD.

dmv · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:20 pm

litton wrote:

I have to ask a question but bear in mind that I am a new to diesel autos.

What is the advantage in running anything over 10....perhaps 20 %?

I ran bio years ago in my Detroit 3-53 boat engine and truely don't understand why anyone wants to run high concentrations. There appears to be no advantages in cost, performance, or mileage once you get past the 5-10% range. I admit that it's a good talking point but it seem there is a diminishing return as the percentage increases.

I am open to being educated but right now, with the engineering info available, it doesn't seem to make sense.

These are the non technical reason that I use B100:

1. B100 = significantly lessened dependence on foreign Oil.
2. Supporting a localy grown product.
3. Warm Fuzzy feeling.
4. When you can buy B100{just as cheap}, except for Winter use, why mix it with Dino D?

Probably not the technical reasons you might be looking for, but somtimes it's just not that complicated.

AZ CRD · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:36 pm

litton wrote:

dmv wrote:

I run B100 in all 3 of my Diesel vehicles and except for cold weather starts, I have had nothing but positive results. as far as I am concerned the positives by far out weigh the negatives, so far.

But what are the positives? Once again, please forgive my ignorance as I am trying to determine the best fuel to fun in my new CRD.

Positives? Let me think. Do you like sending $$$ to the Middle East? Contributing more than necessary to greenhouse gases? Defiling pristine American wilderness?

No . . . Can't think of anything.

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