Dealer's answer to oil in respiratory system

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:14 pm

richardkf wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

I am not worrying about the CCV issue. Even if it has to be cleaned, there are maintenance items you have to do on a regular gas powered car too like tunes up and stuff like that.

Oh yes, these things tend to take care of themselves alright . After all, a tune up will cost you $75 to a $100 bucks for 4 spark plugs and maybe a pcv valve and air filter.

Sometimes a little planning ahead can save some serious money. Has nothing to do with worry.

All speculation - these things havent been on the road long enough to know whether the build up is going to be significant by the time it hits 100k or the bulk of it blown out the tailpipe. The mod reduces the amount of blow-by. It doesnt eliminate it.

If you're right, you're still going to have to do the turbo/intercooler cleaning, maybe a little bit later than those who haven't done the mod. Or maybe not.

Will you really have the truck that long? Do most people really put 125/150K on them? Or does something sweeter come to market 4 or 5 years from now that catches our eye, has a better, quieter diesel set up and adios CRD?

Again, more speculation ... The MB of 25 years ago ran on dirtier diesel fuel than today and still chugging along but louder and smokier.

They are cars. Drive em, enjoy em.

PS - Man if you can do a $75 tune-up for me on my gasser, that'd be awesome! :shock:

richardkf
Have you ever owned a diesel before :?:

Most people who buy a diesel put quite a few miles a year on them. I personally put 107k miles on a 96 passat in 3 years and 3 weeks. The next car was 114k on my 99.5 jetta took a little longer, 5 years. However I'm looking forward to retirement and don't plan to put a whole lot of miles per year on my CRD. However it will pull a camping trailer well and am I'm looking foward to that. But I do plan to have it for quite a few years so over 100k is not to far fetched. I'll have plenty of time to clean the intercooler but do not want to repair/replace a blown transmission.

richardkf · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:15 pm **Posts:** 167

Joe Romas wrote:

richardkf wrote:

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

I am not worrying about the CCV issue. Even if it has to be cleaned, there are maintenance items you have to do on a regular gas powered car too like tunes up and stuff like that.

Oh yes, these things tend to take care of themselves alright . After all, a tune up will cost you $75 to a $100 bucks for 4 spark plugs and maybe a pcv valve and air filter.

Sometimes a little planning ahead can save some serious money. Has nothing to do with worry.

All speculation - these things havent been on the road long enough to know whether the build up is going to be significant by the time it hits 100k or the bulk of it blown out the tailpipe. The mod reduces the amount of blow-by. It doesnt eliminate it.

If you're right, you're still going to have to do the turbo/intercooler cleaning, maybe a little bit later than those who haven't done the mod. Or maybe not.

Will you really have the truck that long? Do most people really put 125/150K on them? Or does something sweeter come to market 4 or 5 years from now that catches our eye, has a better, quieter diesel set up and adios CRD?

Again, more speculation ... The MB of 25 years ago ran on dirtier diesel fuel than today and still chugging along but louder and smokier.

They are cars. Drive em, enjoy em.

PS - Man if you can do a $75 tune-up for me on my gasser, that'd be awesome! :shock:

richardkf
Have you ever owned a diesel before :?:

Most people who buy a diesel put quite a few miles a year on them. I personally put 107k miles on a 96 passat in 3 years and 3 weeks. The next car was 114k on my 99.5 jetta took a little longer, 5 years. However I'm looking forward to retirement and don't plan to put a whole lot of miles per year on my CRD. However it will pull a camping trailer well and am I'm looking foward to that. But I do plan to have it for quite a few years so over 100k is not to far fetched. I'll have plenty of time to clean the intercooler but do not want to repair/replace a blown transmission.

I know that a log of people who put a lot of miles on them. Your milage - 107k and 114k is not that much by today's standards. The average gas engine goes that long. We've come a long way since the 80's and Toyota and Nissan engines, just as long as Diesel.

My point earlier .... MB Diesels from the late 80's - including my own family members had way more milage than that on it - closer to 185k .... and did not have a mod for the turbo blow-by and never had to have the turbo or intercooler cleaned due to build up or accumulation.

The other part of my point .... On the CRD, maybe it will happen and maybe it wont ...

Our family car, as a child, was a gasser Maxima. We had it for 11 years. It had 224k on it - orig motor, transmission, radiator, everything. I know about high mileage cars

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

All speculation - these things havent been on the road long enough to know whether the build up is going to be significant by the time it hits 100k or the bulk of it blown out the tailpipe. The mod reduces the amount of blow-by. It doesnt eliminate it.

If you're right, you're still going to have to do the turbo/intercooler cleaning, maybe a little bit later than those who haven't done the mod. Or maybe not.

Will you really have the truck that long? Do most people really put 125/150K on them? Or does something sweeter come to market 4 or 5 years from now that catches our eye, has a better, quieter diesel set up and adios CRD?

Again, more speculation ... The MB of 25 years ago ran on dirtier diesel fuel than today and still chugging along but louder and smokier.

No speculation at all. 25 year old MB had a mechanical diesel pump, ran at maybe 5K-6K psi injection, nozzle nothing like today's designs.
Cummins did a study a few years back and found the particles in diesel fuel in the range of 5 - 7 microns caused extensive, accelerated wear on 16K psi injection systems, where the same particle size did virtually nothing to the older designs of 20 years ago.

Higher pressure in the fuel injection accelerates wear tremendously. No speculation at all. Look at any high pressure hydraulic system, which is what a common rail fuel injection is very close to in design, and you'll find at least one, and usually 2 big oil filters. Why do suppose that it? Speculation on the manufacters part? Sure it is. They do it because it won't last if they don't. They do it because if contaminants get in the pump or lines, pump cavitation can destroy a high priced pump in seconds if not contained. MB's of old don't even come close to the pressure required to cause this kind of problem. They had hp ratings of 72 to maybe 120 hp and not a lot of torque compared to our CRD's. Thats due to the low pressure design of their fuel injection system. That's one of the primary reasons they last so long - low stress, low pressure designs and built like a tank.

Extrapolation tells you something besides speculation - after 2500 miles, my CAC hose from the turbo was solid black with engine oil, the other to the intake was tiger striped. After adding the Provent, the output hose from the Provent to the turbo was clean. No more oil from engine blowby. Turbo seals caused me problems later, but the Provent to this day has clean output hoses. The oil is collecting in its drain instead of the IC and intake system.

I'm draining about 4 oz every 2000 miles right now, at 23,600 miles, using 5W-40 Mobile 1 CI4 diesel rated oil. At 15K annual mileage, that extrapolates to 30 oz. of engine oil not going into my IC and intake system every year because of the Provent. Thats about 1 quart annually. 4 years of ownership is normal for most people. So spend $175 to prevent a gallon of oil in your IC/Intake/EGR AFC valve or not? That's not speculation for me - that's current oil blowby usage being trapped by the Provent. The blowby oil should be measured in ounces yearly.

My last car had 104K miles on it when I sold it. If I sell the CRD before 200K it won't be because of a whim - it'll be because I can't depend on it.

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

I wasn't trying to dog anyone out with any of my posts. My main point, if you read my first post, is that this design is not new. There are literally millions of Powerstroke diesels running with this same set-up. The cac tubes on my PSD blow a mist of oil at the connections that gets messy after about 30k miles. Many people perform mods to fix this problem, but many more don't. Plenty of owners run their trucks to 400k or more with no mods. If the CRD had oil residue at the connections like the PSD produces, people here would be having heart attacks! Go to "thedieselstop.com" and do a search or ask a question on the 7.3 forum. Do I have dirty cac tubes? YES. A poor running or stopped PSD due to a clogged intake or intercooler? NEVER HEARD OF IT. We are not talking a relative few TDI diesels here, we are talking millions of Ford trucks out there many of which pull heavy loads daily and have hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles.

Has it ever been demonstrated that the quantity of oil caught in the provent would absolutlely end up in the intercooler if not for the vent? I don't doubt people are catching a fair amount of oil with these, but does it all end up stranded in the cooler? Or is a % of it burned off?

BiodieselJeep.com · **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:17 pm

I now have a 99.5 Jetta TDI (popular around this forum?!) and the previous long time owner (187k) apparently did a mod to avoid build up in the intake manifold and EGR and I sure did appreciate it when I openned it up. But it is a true thing, spend some time on the TDI forums and you'll become a believer. I fully expect to get up to 300k on the Jetta engine, and nothing less on the CRD. MB's, powerstrokes are apples to these tiny, high pressure, but oh so efficient "oranges".

But everything aside, I say this: An Elephant Hose Mod takes pocket change and ten minutes to do. Why not just do it? You may NOT believe any interooler or EGR argument enough to pony up the time and money for a Provent, but the EHM? No commitment there.

ps. I approached the dealer about the CCV oil at the time of the EGR valve replacement and tried to put it in context. They acknowledged the oil in the hose, put that on the record, but did not want to put a provent on. Instead they put in a new CCV hose! I don't make a point of telling them that their shiny new short piece of hose now has a cork in it, but they HAVE seen my EHM hose and we just don't talk about it. Kinda like bad family issues at holidays, we both pretend they aren't there. At least that's how we do it in stiff-necked New England.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:22 pm

When I went to install the CCV filter for test run this past week the CAC hose on turbo side was bone dry, not the least bit of oil residue in the hose. Say what you want, if you want to spend big bucks later on intake cleaning, early injector failures, and not to mention new intercooler hoses then do nothing to prevent the oil going into the intake. This is the same problem that gassers had starting back in the 60's when CA mandated the CCV on cars, fowled plugs, oil inthe air cleaners and intake manifolds, it is just worse in diesels due to the extra carbon and oil blow-by of diesels.

Someone from the VW TDI gang wanted to do an intake cleaning/intake swap on a VW, but had something come up and can't make it to the event. I think it was an '02 Jetta, and that a $400 job at most dealerships if nothing else is done. by the way removing the intake on that engine is about a 30 minute job for shade tree tech without power tools.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:17 pm

midwest wrote:

I wasn't trying to dog anyone out with any of my posts. My main point, if you read my first post, is that this design is not new. There are literally millions of Powerstroke diesels running with this same set-up. The cac tubes on my PSD blow a mist of oil at the connections that gets messy after about 30k miles. Many people perform mods to fix this problem, but many more don't. Plenty of owners run their trucks to 400k or more with no mods. If the CRD had oil residue at the connections like the PSD produces, people here would be having heart attacks! Go to "thedieselstop.com" and do a search or ask a question on the 7.3 forum. Do I have dirty cac tubes? YES. A poor running or stopped PSD due to a clogged intake or intercooler? NEVER HEARD OF IT. We are not talking a relative few TDI diesels here, we are talking millions of Ford trucks out there many of which pull heavy loads daily and have hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles.

Has it ever been demonstrated that the quantity of oil caught in the provent would absolutlely end up in the intercooler if not for the vent? I don't doubt people are catching a fair amount of oil with these, but does it all end up stranded in the cooler? Or is a % of it burned off?

Do the power strokes your speaking of have EGR :?:

midwest · **Joined:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:03 am **Posts:** 173

The 6.0 does, and it came out mid year 2003. They have problems also, however, not as bad as the crd. They are easy to access/remove and clean. I'm certainly not trying to defend the crd egr system.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

My main point, if you read my first post, is that this design is not new.

Absolutely correct. At such, it should have been a no brainer to put a halfway decent CCV on the CRD system. But DC did 2 things on such a simple pollution control that you have to wonder how they could have goofed it up so badly.

1. ineffective CCV valve - a few dollars more could have prevented this to the point where we wouldn't even be talking about it. At their volume, European and US sales combined, it wouldn't have cost them what it costs us to put a decent ccv on. A little better designed CCV is all it needed.

2. The hose routing from the CCV to the turbo intake is straight out from the CCV output and straight down about 1 foot, directly into the turbo intake hose. They could not have designed a system better suited to increase oil fumes straight into the turbo intake than this. Even a hose with a couple of coils in it might have helped stop the coalesced oil from running straight down into the turbo input.

To date, there has been a CRD owner who had demonstrably been burned financually, badly, by the oil in his CRD intake. At less than 20K iirc, one of his sensors failed, and the dealership/DC told him that oil of any kind on that sensor would invalidate his warranty - he had to pay quite a bit to have his sensor or egr afc valve replaced - somewhere near a grand iirc. He may have posted on this board. I believe he is still in litigation with DC. Whether the dealer pulled a fast move or not, the point is, someone is already using oil in the CRD intake system to charge CRD owners out of pocket, for a design flaw that is straight from DC engineering.

There was also a report of an australian CRD owner who had their CRD intercooler clog so badly that it blew the IC hoses off while driving - that tells me its at least possible for the IC on the CRD to clog up with that sooty oil.

Until we know how many IC's end up be cleaned for clogging, its worth it to some of us to spen $200 to help slow the process way, way on down, hopefully for the life of the vehicle.

Good luck on your CRD.

weantright · **Posted:** Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:42 am

Your 2002 PSD doesn't have EGR valve or much emission stuff, I know I have one. I feel EGR failures are directly link to oil passing thru the intake alone with particulate matter. What is Dodge doing with this issue?? Cummins doesn't have EGR valve or many emissions items just like Ford's PDS, older motors. Some this year and now all Diesel pick-ups trucks in Jan 1, 2007 will have some sort of EGR and or emission stuff. Bring in the ULSD fuel and some issues are non-existent but time will tell on all this oil entering the intake. My CRD with the Provent has about a 1/4 cup of water and a 1/8 cup of oil every 1500-2000 miles when I drain it. It will add up and the newer Diesel will be troublesome until they (OEM) solve these issues.

Oldnavy - How does injector failuture and oil in the intake go together??

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:10 pm

weantright wrote:

Your 2002 PSD doesn't have EGR valve or much emission stuff, I know I have one. I feel EGR failures are directly link to oil passing thru the intake alone with particulate matter. What is Dodge doing with this issue?? Cummins doesn't have EGR valve or many emissions items just like Ford's PDS, older motors. Some this year and now all Diesel pick-ups trucks in Jan 1, 2007 will have some sort of EGR and or emission stuff. Bring in the ULSD fuel and some issues are non-existent but time will tell on all this oil entering the intake. My CRD with the Provent has about a 1/4 cup of water and a 1/8 cup of oil every 1500-2000 miles when I drain it. It will add up and the newer Diesel will be troublesome until they (OEM) solve these issues.

Oldnavy - How does injector failuture and oil in the intake go together??

Carbon build up on injectors was all I was referring to with injectors. Also you should see how the stuff builds up in back sides of the valves and in that part of the head.

weantright · **Posted:** Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:42 pm

Most of the time in a Diesel motor carbon or sludge build-up is due to low heat in the motor. Low combustion temperature comes from several things like not driving long enough to heat motor, low thermostat opening and long idle time. Low thermostat opening is one way to help pass EPA regulations. Drop the efficiency of the motor and less toxic gases come out the exhaust. Other than coating the emission items and the turbo blades, burning more oil inside the combustion chamber should result in hotter more "fuel" burn. Not suggested but you can burn motor oil just like WVO or #2 fuel, may play havoc on the complete system but it will burn. To suggest the carbon build-up on the injectors is due to the CCV, I would think other issues before CCV oil.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

To suggest the carbon build-up on the injectors is due to the CCV, I would think other issues before CCV oil.

If you think about how that oil blow-by is getting into the combustion chamber and when, it makes sense. Instead of diesel of the right viscosity, designed to vaporize, being sprayed from the injector tip, the heavier, sooty engine oil, additives and all, formulated to not vaporize, is drawn into the intake system, on through the intake valves on the intake stroke, just like on a gasolene engine. Then its pulled all the way down on the intake stroke, then compressed by the piston on the compression stroke, coating the injector tips, glow plugs, and valve faces. When the injector does open and spray the diesel into the combustion chamber, the heat of combustion will aid in coking those engine oil additives, as it's not vaporizing as it should. The heat of combustion is going to partially burn that sooty oil on everything in that chamber, including the injector tips and orifices. Not a good thing. Maybe it will take some time to cause noticeable issues, maybe not. But knowing that engine oil, mixed with egr carbon particles and debris, is in the combustion chamber in the quanity we're seeing in our Provents, is not a formula for keeping things clean inside our CRD's.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:32 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

If you think about how that oil blow-by is getting into the combustion chamber and when, it makes sense. Instead of diesel of the right viscosity, designed to vaporize, being sprayed from the injector tip, the heavier, sooty engine oil, additives and all, formulated to not vaporize, is drawn into the intake system, on through the intake valves on the intake stroke, just like on a gasolene engine. Then its pulled all the way down on the intake stroke, then compressed by the piston on the compression stroke, coating the injector tips, glow plugs, and valve faces. When the injector does open and spray the diesel into the combustion chamber, the heat of combustion will aid in coking those engine oil additives, as it's not vaporizing as it should. The heat of combustion is going to partially burn that sooty oil on everything in that chamber, including the injector tips and orifices. Not a good thing. Maybe it will take some time to cause noticeable issues, maybe not. But knowing that engine oil, mixed with egr carbon particles and debris, is in the combustion chamber in the quanity we're seeing in our Provents, is not a formula for keeping things clean inside our CRD's.

Exactly, very well put and so true.

greiswig · **Posted:** Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:09 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

Quote:

To suggest the carbon build-up on the injectors is due to the CCV, I would think other issues before CCV oil.

If you think about how that oil blow-by is getting into the combustion chamber and when, it makes sense. Instead of diesel of the right viscosity, designed to vaporize, being sprayed from the injector tip, the heavier, sooty engine oil, additives and all, formulated to not vaporize, is drawn into the intake system, on through the intake valves on the intake stroke, just like on a gasolene engine. Then its pulled all the way down on the intake stroke, then compressed by the piston on the compression stroke, coating the injector tips, glow plugs, and valve faces. When the injector does open and spray the diesel into the combustion chamber, the heat of combustion will aid in coking those engine oil additives, as it's not vaporizing as it should. The heat of combustion is going to partially burn that sooty oil on everything in that chamber, including the injector tips and orifices. Not a good thing. Maybe it will take some time to cause noticeable issues, maybe not. But knowing that engine oil, mixed with egr carbon particles and debris, is in the combustion chamber in the quanity we're seeing in our Provents, is not a formula for keeping things clean inside our CRD's.

Add to this the fact that we are using synthetic motor oils, which as I understand it don't burn as readily or completely, exacerbating the issue.

valkraider · **Posted:** Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

weantright wrote:

My CRD with the Provent has about a 1/4 cup of water and a 1/8 cup of oil every 1500-2000 miles when I drain it.

My CRD has not consumed that much oil in the 20000 miles I have driven it...

weantright · **Posted:** Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:56 am

Now at 10,000 miles on motor my Provent is seeing 1/3 cup of water and a shot glass of oil this last 2000 miles.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:06 am

weantright wrote:

Now at 10,000 miles on motor my Provent is seeing 1/3 cup of water and a shot glass of oil this last 2000 miles.

If you have water collecting, check you drain connections for leaks (must be air tight). I had the same situation, now I get only oil since I fixed a fitting leak at the drain bottle.

weantright · **Posted:** Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:17 am

RFCRD wrote:

weantright wrote:

Now at 10,000 miles on motor my Provent is seeing 1/3 cup of water and a shot glass of oil this last 2000 miles.

If you have water collecting, check you drain connections for leaks (must be air tight). I had the same situation, now I get only oil since I fixed a fitting leak at the drain bottle.

Wouldn't this water come from the vapor?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:24 am

weantright wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

weantright wrote:

Now at 10,000 miles on motor my Provent is seeing 1/3 cup of water and a shot glass of oil this last 2000 miles.

If you have water collecting, check you drain connections for leaks (must be air tight). I had the same situation, now I get only oil since I fixed a fitting leak at the drain bottle.

Wouldn't this water come from the vapor?

The vapor passes through (in theory) and gets sucked into the engine. My water collection was from moisture in the air getting sucked through leaks in the drain tube where it would sludge-up the collected oil in the drain bottle then eventually separate and fall to the bottom. Since I fixed the leak, The drain oil is much smoother and no water present in the bottle.

Dealer's answer to oil in respiratory system

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