Don't hold your breath for the Diesel Grand Cherokee

Jeger · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:36 am

Marlon_JBT wrote:

vtdog wrote:

I thought there was a thread here awhile back about DCX buying 100,000 tdi engines from VW to put in a small north american car (compass?/nitro?).

Whatever happened with that?

Those engines are going in the Caliber, Compass and Patriot.

For export of course :evil:

About the Smart cars, they are going on sale in the US soon, next year or so I believe, no diesel yet but apparently that is in the works as well for the US, How does 70MPG sound? thats not an estimate either the little smart fortwo's with the 3cyl turbodiesel actually get mileage that good.

ccattie · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:44 am

I think you don't see those ads on TV anymore because they are retiring the Dr. Z ads. They're probably ramping up a new campaign.
-c

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:10 pm

RFCRD wrote:

no-blue-screen wrote:

DC is probably getting cold feet.....there will be a lot of problems with people misfueling these vehicles and damaging the emissions equipment...that is just going to happen until every fuel outlet has only ULSD at the pump. This is why other automakers are taking their time in bringing their diesels to market....e.g. VW - 2008, Honda estimated 2009....etc. Unfortunately, there are stupid people out there who will misfuel their vehicles....if they can't tell the difference between Gas and Diesel...do you really expect them to be able to tell the difference between ULSD and LSD? That is asking a little too much IMHO.

The real issue is the economics of small diesels are up-side-down at the moment, gas is cheap and diesel technology (esp the '07 variety) is expensive. Wait until gas is selling for $3+/gal again or worse, spot shortages/lines waiting to fill-up. Small diesels will make a lot of sense again.

As for Jeep offering another diesel product in the near future, one just needs to ask a simple question; Will a $40K+ GC CRD buyer tolerate the mechanical problems that plague the $25K Liberty CRD owners for marginal fuel savings? If someone can afford to put a $40K+ vehicle on the road, it's likely that fuel cost will be secondary to reliability.

What you say is totally true, but we should note that the motor going into the GC is going to be a Mercedes engine, and it will only run on ULSD. I think the problems we have with the libertys are mainly due to the fact this is a test vehicle. I have over 4k on mine and still no problems (knocking on wood). You also make a good point on the gas prices, but honestly.....how long do you think we are going to have $2 per gallon gas? If I had money riding on it, I would be willing to bet gasoline prices will be up again just in time for the thanksgiving and christmas holidays. Gas prices will never be stable unless you call a fluctuation of $1-$1.50 per gallon stable. Diesel has many advantages over gas and I think DC proved that with their test of the liberty. I don't think anyone is going to put fuel economy on the back-burner at this point even though gas is at $2 per gallon....I make my decisions based on the price of gas being between $3 and $3.50 per gallon. It's just a matter of time before they cut production again to bump the prices back up. Not trying to start a flame about gas prices, but just trying to point out the importance of the economy factor alone. We have to remember that when gas prices are high, they run about the same or withing a couple of cent of the price of Diesel fuel....or at least that is teh way it was around here.

KJbob · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:14 pm

I must have missed something. Where did the $40k price tag for a GC CRD come from?

The CRD option is mentioned numerous times in the 2007 Grand Cherokee literature. If DCX is second guessing their decision after it's out in their literature, well that would be a really bad move.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:26 pm

KJbob wrote:

I must have missed something. Where did the $40k price tag for a GC CRD come from?

The CRD option is mentioned numerous times in the 2007 Grand Cherokee literature. If DCX is second guessing their decision after it's out in their literature, well that would be a really bad move.

I think we are just guessing based on the price range of the GC.

Jeger · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:45 pm

Around here, when gas prices are high diesel is cheaper

Even when gas prices are a lot cheaper than diesel it still isnt enough to make me want to ditch the diesel.

And yes you can be sure that gas prices will never stay down.

Gasoline hits 2006 low, OPEC President says more crude oil cuts may be needed
Updated 11/6/2006 9:39 AM ET E-mail | Save | Print | Subscribe to stories like this

By Kelly Olsen, Associated Press
SEOUL — As U.S. gasoline prices hit a 2006 low, OPEC President Edmund Daukoru said Monday that the oil cartel may need to cut crude oil production further this year to deal with an oversupply in the market.
"When we meet in December we will take a view on it, but it looks as if some further mopping up will be necessary," Daukoru told reporters. "The market is clearly oversupplied, clearly oversupplied."

The statement had little effect on crude oil markets, where prices slipped below $59 a barrel as high fuel stocks in consumer countries blunted the impact of Daukoru's statement and of a new attack on Nigerian oil facilities.

In the USA, the national retail average for self-serve, the average price of regular unleaded gasoline has fallen to its lowest point this year, $2.198 according to the American Automobile Association's survey.

Gasoline prices have fallen more than 84 cents a gallon after rising to an average $3.036 a gallon in August. Prices are also down from an average $2.4257 a year ago.

Regarding OPEC's decision last month to cut production effective Nov. 1, Daukoru said effects of that cut would be seen soon.

He said it will take "probably into the middle of the month before you will start to believe us."

The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries decided last month at a meeting in Qatar to curb supplies by 1.2 million barrels a day. It plans to meet again in December in Nigeria.

Oil prices have tumbled from a mid-July peak above $78 a barrel. On Monday, light, sweet crude for December delivery dropped 42 cents to $58.72 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

"I don't know where it should be, but the current price is low," Daukoru said.

Daukoru also said he couldn't say how much any potential further cut might be.

Regarding the seizure by gunmen Thursday of a Briton and an American working for the Norwegian company Petroleum Geo-Services on Nigeria's southern coast, Daukoru, who is from Nigeria, said he was confident the hostages would soon be safely released.

"Naturally we are concerned that the hostages might come to unintended harm, but in incident after incident upon payment of a small amount they let the hostages go," he said. "This one is no different."

Since the beginning of this year, various militant groups in Nigeria have attacked oil pipelines and taken expatriate oil workers hostage in violence that has cut about 25% of the country's usual crude output of about 2.5 million barrels daily.

The militants say they are fighting on behalf of an impoverished population for a greater share of wealth from oil companies and the Nigerian government, which apportions the revenue among Nigeria's 36 states.

Daukoru repeated his oft-stated view that the unrest in the region is not political but rather is related to a lack of development, which he said the government is working to address.

He said "the problems you see now will recede into nothing as the development effort gains ground."

Dutchy · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:05 pm

The GC Diesel is the best selling GC over here ande yke KJ crd is the best selling Kj over here, the most reliable part of a jeep is the CRD engine, a car company without a large diesel program in Europe is a dying company,

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

There are several factors hurting any diesel introduction for early 2007. Some are not directly attributable to DC actions. Lower gasolene prices, higher diesel prices, harsh EPA regulations, ULSD not be widely available as labeled ULSD is also a problem for both DC and VW.

These external factors will continue to have a varying impact on the US diesel market. One big factor in lower gasolene prices is the effect of spot market traders on oil - they price in higher costs on the slightest hint or fear of hurricanes, supply, political unrest, supply disruption from any source long before the crude oil affect by these upcoming events ever hits the refinery. This past fall, then the extra pricing for hurricane seasonal disruption could no longer be justified, tankers with oil sitting their cargo holds offshore, waiting for the price to rise, had to unload quickly as the price actually fell. Notice that Wall Street traders never "give back" their speculative profits on events that never occur.

However, some events are under DC's control, such as better engineering, good dealer support for diesel vehicles and a halfway decent parts stocking model for parts. Waiting weeks for a TCM, PCM. EGR valve, TC or glow plugs is just unacceptable for a critical new diesel offering. This is where RFCRD's question is legitimate - for a $40K GC CRD, is the support model that Liberty CRD owners have experienced going to be tolerated? Not likely.

It isn't hard to get a GC Limited or Overland in the $40K price range, even without a diesel engine. I believe DC thinks of their V6 diesel engine as a premium luxury feature - and will price it accordingly - along with the extra $2 - $3K that downstream BlueTec emission control devices will add to the price tag. With their Mercedes car line starting in the high $40K range, they have some room to bury the cost. Much harder to bury in a $25K -$30K vehicle, hence the $40K price tag we suspect the V6 CDI GC will be available on at first.

So now we have what looks like to be a nearly perfect storm against DC successfully introducing diesels in their Jeep GC line of vehicles in the near term. The events are a large price disparity in favor of gasolene, poor reputation of Liberty CRD in a few key areas and terrible dealer support history, coupled with much higher cost emissions required equipment on 07 diesel models, and their bleeding red ink of late.

This all aligns to make a much more difficult time for them. With their poor financial results lately, they cannot afford a massive failure on the GC with LSD fuel destroying downstream emissions devices. This is especially critical from a financial standpoint, with the enormous cost of the Liberty ball joint recall coming due in the next year. Sometimes you have to wonder how the numbers work out for auto companies to keep using sub-standard parts. Even on the Liberty, an otherwise fine vehicle is marred by a few dollar's worth of really dumb cost cutting. How much that decision will cost them in future sales is yet to be seen.

I don't believe the Liberty EGR/Tranny fiasco is over yet with DC either - I suspect before too long either a government forced safety recall or lawsuit will hit them and they will be notifying the 11,000 CRD owners to replace both EGR valves and transmission parts. If DC has any decent operation risk analysts in house, they are probably running those numbers now. Lots of risk models factor in to see how much money they can risk on new technology.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The GC Diesel is the best selling GC over here ande yke KJ crd is the best selling Kj over here, the most reliable part of a jeep is the CRD engine, a car company without a large diesel program in Europe is a dying company, the problem you guys have in the US is that your oil company's do not want to invest in cleaner diesel and do anything to stop diesels being a success.
The oil company's make much more profit if you keep driving 12mpg SUV's and as long as the government is not willing to interfere the oil company's will not invest in new clean diesel, that's a fact!
It is all politics, next time you EGR valve goes on the blink, don’t think crap Jeep but think crap George W.

If fuel was $7.50/gal (like it is in the UK & Europe), the 30% fuel savings would be significant enough to make them popular and worth the trouble. The only thing political about this situation is the difference in tax policies. If a US politician proposed the level of taxation on fuel even close to what is present in the UK or Europe, they would get lynched.

Dutchy · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:18 am

Ranger1 wrote:

.

It isn't hard to get a GC Limited or Overland in the $40K price range, even without a diesel engine. I believe DC thinks of their V6 diesel engine as a premium luxury feature - and will price it accordingly - along with the extra $2 - $3K that downstream BlueTec emission control devices will add to the price tag. With their Mercedes car line starting in the high $40K range, they have some room to bury the cost. Much harder to bury in a $25K -$30K vehicle, hence the $40K price tag we suspect the V6 CDI GC will be available on at first.

.

The GC CRD, Commander CRD and 300C CRD are the cheapest options in the UK, so why should they price the diesel engine as a premium luxury feature over there if they have to brake into a new market, this does not make sence and $2000- $3000 for blueTec emission control devices per car is rubbish and so is a $40.000 price tag for a GC CRD.
The difference between a KJ and a GC CRD is 30% over here.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

$2000- $3000 for blueTec emission control devices per car is rubbish and so is a $40.000 price tag for a GC CRD.

Dutchy,
From the US Jeep web site - Limited 4X4 model, H package, with the smaller 4.7L V8 engine, base cost is $38,835, without delivery, tax and title fee. Add the 5.7L V8,skid plates, engine block heater and delivery and you're at $40,070 before taxes and tag. Overland 4X4, base cost is $43,385 - and this is with gasolene engines. Bottom model Laredo, with a V8, sunroof, stereo package,quadratrack and you're at $35,000 before taxes. No diesel option priced in. If DC ends up charging $4K for the mercedes V6 diesel package, we're pretty much at $40K for the entry model diesel GC. At these prices, the Limited and Overland GC's are overlapping ML320 territory.

I agree, the costs are out of line for a vehicle that is going to lose close to 40% of its resale value the first year alone. The costs for emissions equipment came from estimates quoted over a year ago by industry analysts looking at US markets. What DC actually charges has yet to be discovered - that may be part of their delima in the US. Btw, those same controls are not required for the European market, as our EPA emissions are out of control in the NOx arena.

Jeep vehicles in their basic form cost much less over here than in Europe - at least going by the conversion rate if you price them from UK or other European web sites, but diesel engine options have been traditionally expensive on our pickup truck vehicles - the exception has been the Liberty CRD. Diesel engine option alone on the DC Dodge Cummins equipped pickup truck was $5400 for 06 models - without the 07 emissions equipment, which is less stringent than those required for gvw's less than 8500 lbs. We should know in a few months the cost of the 07 Dodge Cummins equipped models, so comparisions may be easier after that.

KenJennings · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:22 am

Dutchy wrote:

[...]It is all politics, next time you EGR valve goes on the blink, don’t think crap Jeep but think crap George W.

Diesels were not popular with US car makers for the US market before George Bush was president. So, it must be Clinton's fault. Or Carter's. Or Nixon's. or JFK's, etc. Actually, wasn't the KJ CRD introduced during Bush's presidency?, so I guess we have to give him credit for the fact we could even buy a diesel KJ.

The EGR is a piece of junk the DC bean counters put in to make the EPA happy. Part of the problem is the EPA wouldn't allow a better-working doo-hickey, such as a urea system that has to be refilled.

Dutchy · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:26 am

The GC CRD is lower priced than the 6 cylinder petrol ones, you guys only have the V8 option at the moment, when the CRD option comes available you probably also will get a 6 cylinder petrol version.

.

KenJennings · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:34 am

Dutchy wrote:

[...]As I said the issue with diesel is political motivated, the fuel companies do not want to invest in cleaner diesel and the government is hiking up emission regulations at the same time, it will become technical more and more difficult to bring a diesel car onto the market in this way.

This is done to stop diesel cars becoming a success in the US.
The oil industry has to be forced to make cleaner diesel, they are not interested in investing billion’s only to sell less fuel in the end as diesel cars are 30% more efficient, only a government can make them invest, but we all know who is running the current government, the oil industry.

So, who manufactures the cleaner diesel for sale in Europe? The oil companies or European politicians? I was under the impression diesel was made at a petroleum refinery, not a parliament.

The problem with diesels in the US is mostly one of consumer perception of diesels due to car manufacturers' poor diesel implementations in the 70s.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

The GC CRD is lower priced than the 6 cylinder petrol ones, you guys only have the V8 option at the moment, when the CRD option comes available you probably also will get a 6 cylinder petrol version.

The GC is available in the US with the same 3.7L V6 that is standard in the Liberty. While its fine in the Liberty, the V6 in the GC is a little sluggish in comparison due to the 5000 lb plus weight of the GC. Consequently, it is not as popular as the 4.7L V8. In some cases, depending on the terrain, the 4.7L V8 actually gets similar mileage to the V6 and performs better. The V8, if driven sensibly has to work less to achieve the same speed as the V6.

Using the only Jeep vehicle available with both gas and diesel engines, the Liberty, shows the 4 cylinder diesel engine option cost more in the US than the V6 gasser. Mass production in the US of gasolene powered engines makes them less costly than an equivalent size diesel.

Dutchy · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:10 am

---------------------------
So, who manufactures the cleaner diesel for sale in Europe? The oil companies or European politicians? I was under the impression diesel was made at a petroleum refinery, not a parliament.

________________

As the European politicians are less influenced by the oil industry, they give the oil industry and car industry targets for cleaner fuel and emissions, both work together to achieve this, a direct result are the CRD, TDI and direct fuel injected petrol engines.
180 BHP out of a 1.4, 4 cylinder petrol engine or 180 BHP out of a 1.9, 4 cylinder diesel engine is the norm now.

------

Using the only Jeep vehicle available with both gas and diesel engines, the Liberty, shows the 4 cylinder diesel engine option cost more in the US than the V6 gasser. Mass production in the US of gasolene powered engines makes them less costly than an equivalent size diesel.
-------------

You forget that this CRD diesel engine is used in Europe not only in the KJ, but also in all other DC products besides being used in vans and small trucks, the 2.8 CRD for the US market is 99% the same as the one used in hundreds of thousands of vehicles here and the rest of the world

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:

You forget that this CRD diesel engine is used in Europe not only in the KJ, but also in all other DC products besides being used in vans and small trucks, the 2.8 CRD for the US market is 99% the same as the one used in hundreds of thousands of vehicles here and the rest of the world

True, but the pricing model for diesels in the US is not in line with the European pricing. As to economy of scale, the entire engine output of VM Motori is 500K for Chrysler, which is all engines shipped to Chrysler since 1992. The 3.7L Liberty V6 production alone since 2002 is somewhere near 800K. That doesn't count those sold for non Liberty vehicles.

For reasons that make little sense to me, diesels in light duty passenger vehicles in the US market are still an expensive option. Until GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda start selling cost effective diesel vehicles here, with effective dealership support will that situation change.

I initially thought DC would be able to break into the mainstream US diesel market with their Jeep brand. After watching their progress in the US for the last 2 years, I now think that accomplishment will fall to others.

no-blue-screen · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:06 am

Wait a second. don't consumers in the UK get a significant tax break for buying a Diesel powered vehicle over a petrol one? I don't understand how everything works in the UK, but it is my understanding that the government over there wants consumers to buy diesel powered vehicles and not petrol powered vehicles.

Dutchy · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:26 pm

no-blue-screen wrote:

Wait a second. don't consumers in the UK get a significant tax break for buying a Diesel powered vehicle over a petrol one? I don't understand how everything works in the UK, but it is my understanding that the government over there wants consumers to buy diesel powered vehicles and not petrol powered vehicles.

No tax brake at all, they are all taxed the same, do not forget we pay twice as much for the same product (libby CRD sport $38000), in some country's diesel engined cars are taxed higher as the governments do not get the same revenue on fuel tax as diesel powered cars use 30% less, Holland is an example for that.
Do not forget, most governments in Europe hate cars, but at least they try to make them fuel efficient, that's a good thing as fuel is as expensive as milk or twice as expensive as orangejuice

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:

No tax brake at all, they are all taxed the same, do not forget we pay twice as much for the same product (libby CRD sport $38000), in some country's diesel engined cars are taxed higher as the governments do not get the same revenue on fuel tax as diesel powered cars use 30% less, Holland is an example for that.
Do not forget, most governments in Europe hate cars, but at least they try to make them fuel efficient, that's a good thing as fuel is as expensive as milk or twice as expensive as orangejuice

Kinda contradicts each other...wants them more fuel efficient then taxes the diesels because they are more fuel efficient. As for goverments "hating cars", that is just a wierd take on the situation. Transportation is "big business" in any government. They don't "make" the cars more efficient, but they can set MPG/MPL requirements that dictate fuel efficiency. I am sure policies and attitudes run a wide gammet when it comes to cars/efficiency/size/type from one part of the world to another. A poor economy is not going to pay close attention to environmental concerns and focus on cheap transportation that helps the economy. Now a country that occupies a "small geographic area" is going to want fewer vehicles that run clean and efficient. A large country that can have long distances between point to point is going to have a different agenda also. Also countries that have to import all thier gas/oil are going to find alternatice sources of power...per Iceland...they run hydrogen ect and are almost fuel self sufficient except for the shipping fleet diesel. The other major factor is what the public wants...big SUV's, Hummers, ect are the norm in the States and most of them run big V8 petrol instead of a more fuel efficient Turbo Diesel. Change is always resisted by most and the same holds true for CARS/TRUCKS/SUVs. Until fuel prices STAY at a high level for a while...it seems like the we are not going to change.

Don't hold your breath for the Diesel Grand Cherokee

Who is online