Open mouth insert foot

I stand corrected, just not experienced in this area of the market....

As far as the entire line after 07 not being as servicable, or directed at a certain segment... does that include the new JK and why?

I figured that the new JK would be somewhat trail worthy...
-Mark

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2008 VW Rabbit- 5-speed 5-cylinders
2000 TJ 4-cylinders 5-speed I'll let you know when I figure it out.
2006 Liberty SOLD.

We have both an 05 KJ and an 06 TJ. While the unibody and IFS of the KJ are negatives, I feel the overall KJ design is better than the TJ design. The entire front half of a Trail Rated Liberty is covered with flat skids. A Trail Rated TJ lacks an engine skid and has one transmission and one transfer case skid which meet at a two inch height difference. The TJ also has folded steel control arms and plastic stabilizer bar links, while the Liberty has thicker steel tube control arms. The Liberty has mini skids on the unibody lower control arm mounts, a better placed muffler, and a high-tech engine. The Liberty transmission and transfer case are identical to the TJ. While the Liberty does weigh more, with my limited engineering experience, I'd say that it's just as strong. It does have twice the towing capacity. Like the TJ, the Liberty is the only vehicle that uses its platform. It doesn't have many light-weight vehicle compromises. We all know how much it weighs The same can't be said for the new Liberty, Patriot, or Compass, which are all based on car platforms. Take a look under a Trail Rated Liberty and you'll see that it was designed for off-road.

_________________
Jeep Liberty Wikibook
# cd /home/fuzzymuzzle.com

woah that is "out there" dont ya think?

first I will say that I have no clue what the under side of an '06 TJ looks like but I know what my '02 looks like and I can tell you this
you dont need an engine skid on the TJ it has a huge axel that protects it as well as how high up the engine sits in the hood
I will admit that an oil pan skid would be nice but other than that no biggie
yes the control arms do "bring the suck" but still the only time I have ever seen them fail is when some one hit a root or a rock going WAY TO FAST
The KJ only weighs more by about 300-500# so not enough to count
and if you dont think that poor excuse for a trany skid is light weight then OK

I am not trying to argue here on this one but I have seen both the bone stock '02 TJ and a bone stock '03 KJ on the same trail at the same time and on some stuff the same driver ,me, and I know that the TJ is a better trail machine
yes the KJ made it but not nearly as easily as the TJ
Do I think that the KJ is good for light duty trails?
YES I plan to wheel the KJ on the "easy" trails around home when the wife gets a new ride
mostly because I would rather ride in the KJ for the 100-200+ round trip highway miles to and from the trails
but when I go to ride the "good stuff" I will be in the TJ I know that a moded KJ could do it but I dont think that it will too long if I do

I dont like the pastic for one
also I took a look under one and the axel ends on the DS are puny to say the least
the under side looked like a rake ,there may be skid plate options but I dont know
the longer wheel base means less break over and to make up for it they put bigger tires on it
the V6 does not have good useable slow go power ,the old I6 hade lots of torque around 1500-2000rpm but the V6 needs to turn more rpm to do that wich means that more speed is needed to go over the same obsticle also the JK just like the KJ does not have any servicable joints on it and those puny DS ends dont even have U-joints but they use a CV ,try to fix that on a trail
oh wait the CV is stronger than a U-joint so insted of breaking a U-joint you snap the end off the DS and are realy up the creek

I would also rather have a TJ or YJ that are going to out number any thing else on the trail 5 to 1 so if I do break something or if some one I am with breaks something then chances are good some one will have a spare part
This is also what made the XJ great it used much of the same running gear as the TJ/YJ of the same year so the parts could be swaped around
things like axel shafts and U-joints ,stuff that tends to break out on the trail

Just my .02

It's not a conventional thought . Other than body on frame, SFA, and lack of c-clips in the rear, what's better on the TJ? The Liberty has more radiator protection, rock rails, what looks to be a better intake and better transmission cooling, no exposed wiring, a tone ring speedometer, standard rear disc brakes, and redundant parking brakes.

Don't want to go off topic, so I've posted my responses here:

The Wrangler design is ten years old, the tone ring speedometer is just another indicator that technology has improved since the TJ was designed. While the TJ is less susceptible to rocker damage, I wouldn't drive one off-road without rock rails. Not sure about the demographics for off-roading, but from inventories it looks like twice as many Jeep Wranglers come with autos than manuals. According to Jeep.com, the 06 Liberty Renegade 4x4 has 9.0" ground clearance while the 06 Wrangler Sport has 8.9". This is with skid plates and the same size tires on both vehicles and the Liberty's larger C8.25 rear axle. The KJ intake is larger in diameter and shorter in length than the TJ intake and just about as good as an aftermarket intake. The KJ has a power steering cooler and, if I remember correctly, it also has a larger diameter rear driveshaft. Never seen the brakes on a TJ, but the KJ has seperate drum brakes in the back for the emergency brake.

From Wikipedia:


With automatic transmissions, the 06 Liberty Renegade 4x4 curb weight is 4033#, while the 06 Sport Wrangler's is 3493#; the difference is 606#.

_________________
Jeep Liberty Wikibook
# cd /home/fuzzymuzzle.com

you dont realy need rock rails on the TJ and the intake on the TJ is higher up
not all TJ's are nonC-clip only the dana44's most folks go with the manual trans so no cooler needed and I think that the newer models ,maby '03 and up came with a 4 speed not a 3 and have a cooler I have only heard of a few folks having problems with water and TJ's and those were the ones that got into water that was up in to the cab and like 6-8" deep inside I think that the rubis come with rear disk but it would be a + that is for sure but after market takes real good care of that and I dont know what you are talking about with the parking break stuff they are all activated with a leaver and a cable?
the speedo thing is a gear on a wire job and real easy to adjust I dont know about the Kj but the speedo has very little to do with "trail worthyness"


lets keep in mind that I am speaking from a off the lot head to head for trail worthyness the wrangler line was built to be better that is why they have it that is who they targeted with the TJ
Now the JK I have not yet figured out who they are targeting?
I know who Toyota is targeting with the FJ though

The TJ weighs in close to or over 4000lbs? I'd say the KJ Renegade weighs a lot more...a lot more.
Heck, the XJ is barely making 3000 lbs.

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New KJ Gear - Desert Armor Flak

2004 Renegade Light Khaki - 4" JBA Lift - Rock Lizard Products: Komodo Dragon Rear Bumper, Prototype Winch-mount Front Bumper, Super Skink Sliders - All J's Super Tranny Skid II - 31" Firestone Destination AT's on Moab wheels - Cobra 75W CB w/ stock Antenna mod

[b]Retired, US Military

Not to be a weiner, but this thread has gotten waaay off topic. It began as a thread about the yota's with the LBJ recall or whatever and has turned into a pissing contest about KJ's versus TJ's.

I'm guilty for starting to turn the rudder away from the topic at hand, but all I know is that I love my KJ and I want to buy a JK to compliment the KJ.

Anyways, I am sorry if I veered this off course by bringing up the fact that I didn't think that servicable ball joints are necessary... all I know is that when we sell a machine to our customers they want it to run forever with the least amount of maintenence and if it breaks they want it to be easy to fix. The same goes for me with my NEW vehicle. I am not opposed to fixing my own jeep, in fact my tnets search on here will be for the oil capacity for when I change my own oil (something which I have done on every car I have ever owned)... even if the dealership was offering free oil changes I would probably do my own. I like synthetic, and I like to know that I did the job right (or at least that I don't have to worry aobut being standed on the account of some underpaid oil-changing grumpy guy)
-Mark

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2008 VW Rabbit- 5-speed 5-cylinders
2000 TJ 4-cylinders 5-speed I'll let you know when I figure it out.
2006 Liberty SOLD.

if you dont know then I will say it again
I am an industrial scale service tech. I service repair and instal scales ,the ones that weigh trucks
and yes the TJ weighs almost as much as the KJ

TRUST ME

Don't feel bad, it come with the territory. Try asking a question sometime about upgrading to a stable high-speed highway tire. It will morph into how big of a monster mudder you can fit under your KJ and how much more ground clearance you can gain. Perfect for running over Civics on I-271.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

Found this.

http://www.daimlerchrysler.ca/EN/JEEP/PDF/tj_specs_05.pdf

TJ around 3400-3700 lbs.

I think AdamisAdam had his weighed after his mods and he was hitting very close to 5000 lbs. A lot more stress on standard LBJ's.

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New KJ Gear - Desert Armor Flak

2004 Renegade Light Khaki - 4" JBA Lift - Rock Lizard Products: Komodo Dragon Rear Bumper, Prototype Winch-mount Front Bumper, Super Skink Sliders - All J's Super Tranny Skid II - 31" Firestone Destination AT's on Moab wheels - Cobra 75W CB w/ stock Antenna mod

[b]Retired, US Military

That is for a TJ no fuel no driver no cargo

add to say 3550# ,middle of the road, a 175# driver = 3725
now add for heaver than stock tires +100# = 3825
now add for tools +50# = 3875
now add for fuel unleaded ~6.25# per gallon with 15 gallon in tank = 90#
so now you are at 3965
I dont know what others carry on the trail besides a few tools but I also carry sper U-joints and other msc parts that would easily put me at 4000#
then also add for things like after market tire carrier and an Ice chest with food and water add to that a passenger in this case my wife
I do not have a winch but that would add 100# easy

My TJ ready for the trail is ~ 4300#
You mission to prove me wrong has once again been foiled
I have no clue why some of the guys on this form feel it is there duty to prove others wrong but maby they should think that it could rub some the wrong way
I have VERY thick skin so rub all day I could care less I know what I know

You're kidding me right, add that to a KJ and it is yet again more The curb weight, which includes fuel and fluids, of the TJ Rubicon is 3,775#. The curb wieght of the Liberty Renegade is 4,033#. The only real way to compare is curb weight, no one knows what anyone else has in their Jeep. If you do want to compare fully loaded weight, use gross weight. It's not that people are trying to prove you wrong; it's that people think for themselves and aren't going to blindly follow you or anyone else on this board.

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Jeep Liberty Wikibook
# cd /home/fuzzymuzzle.com

I guess if the discussion is going to include cargo, the logical question would be about the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating which includes cargo. That said, I'm pretty sure most of the logic has drained out of this thread.

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Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

My last post was showing you were right on the base weight of the TJ and you looked at it as an attack on you.

As Unixxx mentions, you add that weight to the KJ also and the KJ will still weigh more. Like I said, we have KJ's topping up around 5k. The KJ can't add the monster tires because we don't have the bigger lifts so the only comparison is to look at stock models on the showroom that have not been modified. So we go back to that link I posted and what Jeep posted for KJ's, which was around 4000 lbs for the Sport model...not sure what the Renegade model was listed as but had to be about 100-150 pounds heavier than Sport.

This has gone way off topic. The issue is ball joints failing with Toyota and it looks like Ball Joints are an issue across the board.

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New KJ Gear - Desert Armor Flak

2004 Renegade Light Khaki - 4" JBA Lift - Rock Lizard Products: Komodo Dragon Rear Bumper, Prototype Winch-mount Front Bumper, Super Skink Sliders - All J's Super Tranny Skid II - 31" Firestone Destination AT's on Moab wheels - Cobra 75W CB w/ stock Antenna mod

[b]Retired, US Military

Tokyojoe and unixxx
maby both of you need to step back and get a reality check
YES THE KJ WEIGHS MORE I am not arguing that point I am however saying that it 1) does NOT weigh as much as you think
and 2) the TJ weighs more than YOU THINK

look post all day long about junk from the mfg as I said it is my JOB to know what things weigh I do it all day long
say what you want but you are still wrong
maby if I bring both my rigs to a state cerified scale and get the printed ticket you will stop being jackalopes about this

and the ball joit thing is poor mfg or is it just fine for a rig that was made for dirt 2 tracks?

Jason, I'm glad you're a scale technician, that doesn't change the fact that there is 258# difference between the TJ Rubicon and KJ Renegade. No one's arguing with you, in fact, the Jeep data that I've posted supports your opinion. Unlike us, you're not citing any sources and you're acting rude and ridiculous. Someone who installs scales should respect manufacturer specs. For the sake of everyone's sanity, I'm no longer replying to this thread.

_________________
Jeep Liberty Wikibook
# cd /home/fuzzymuzzle.com

Jason.....you need to cool your jets buddy. Your comments are extremely uncalled for.


Just noticed the time you posted.......right after the Saints loss.

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New KJ Gear - Desert Armor Flak

2004 Renegade Light Khaki - 4" JBA Lift - Rock Lizard Products: Komodo Dragon Rear Bumper, Prototype Winch-mount Front Bumper, Super Skink Sliders - All J's Super Tranny Skid II - 31" Firestone Destination AT's on Moab wheels - Cobra 75W CB w/ stock Antenna mod

[b]Retired, US Military