PARAGON MAY BE CLOSING

KJ04 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:15 am

Here's the link:[url]http://paragonap.com/forum/showthread.php?p=61299#post61299[/b][/url]

With Wellsville partly closed in Eastern Ohio and subject to close down by 08, and now this with Paragon, will not leave me any choice but to eventually sell the Liberty or move.

DaveKJ02 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:35 am

Congrats! The ONLY jeep board on the net where nobody seems to care that one of the premier offroad parks on the entire east coast may be closing. THIS is a true indication why manufacturers dont care about the KJ....because we dont really care about wheeling, just warranties and gas mileage.

bmg9b · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:38 am

I think it's a crying shame... I hope the landlord breaks the contract for no real reason and gets sued for breach of contract. Then they can buy the land back with all the money they make and not to mention the owner of the property is going to need all the money he can get after the lawsuit.

Donkeykong · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:54 pm

DaveKJ02 wrote:

Congrats! The ONLY jeep board on the net where nobody seems to care that one of the premier offroad parks on the entire east coast may be closing. THIS is a true indication why manufacturers dont care about the KJ....because we dont really care about wheeling, just warranties and gas mileage.

I'll beg to differ, this thread was posted saturday night at 7:15pm or somethign late like that.... wait until monday when everyone is back from their fun in the snow or ice and reads this thread, then there will be words....

My $.02:

I'm into mountain biking more than wheeling, and the same thing goes, everyday there is a trail network getting the axe because of some bearucratic reason or another. I'm upseat that this is happening, and only wish there was something I do as I would love to wheel at Paragon...

-Mark

raceinfan · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:40 pm

DaveKJ02 wrote:

Congrats! The ONLY jeep board on the net where nobody seems to care that one of the premier offroad parks on the entire east coast may be closing. THIS is a true indication why manufacturers dont care about the KJ....because we dont really care about wheeling, just warranties and gas mileage.

I beg to differ on this issue,I did read about this in the MA section & went to the link to see what was happening & they had said themselves just pray for the best there realy wasn't anything we could do as a wheeling community,did something change ????? I DO CARE so what do you prepose we do????? I would love to get down there someday with you guy's I'm only 6 hrs away

KJMedic · **Posted:** Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:35 pm

DaveKJ02 wrote:

Congrats! The ONLY jeep board on the net where nobody seems to care that one of the premier offroad parks on the entire east coast may be closing. THIS is a true indication why manufacturers dont care about the KJ....because we dont really care about wheeling, just warranties and gas mileage.

I go to 4 or 5 boards and this is the first I have seen of it.

chefdab · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:46 pm

As soon as I saw the original post in the MA section, I immediately posted on another jeepforum to get more responses. In fact I told the original poster in MA that he should post it up in the general section for more exposure.

dirtykj · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:29 pm

DaveKJ02 wrote:

Congrats! The ONLY jeep board on the net where nobody seems to care that one of the premier offroad parks on the entire east coast may be closing. THIS is a true indication why manufacturers dont care about the KJ....because we dont really care about wheeling, just warranties and gas mileage.

That's way off the mark ... really ...

I personally can't get that excited about a private business running into issues. If it's a national park closing access to OHV, that's something else.

Cacher123 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:56 pm

Not only that, but if you read the posts on the Paragon site from the actual people that run the place, they state there is really nothing to be done. So what are we supposed to do, run a couple of hundred posts that will amount to nothing to prove that we care? Ever hear of "beating a dead horse"?

Just because we don't discuss an issue doesn't mean we aren't concerned or that we only care about "warranties and gas mileage". Which by the way, probably affect more owners on this site than the closing of a local off road site.

bavfc3364 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:07 pm

here is a link to help you understand what Paragon does and why we want to keep it, you should have probably been there to understand.

[/url]http://www.standardspeaker.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4102&Itemid=2[url][/url]

gone_jeepin · **Posted:** Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:53 pm

I read on another forum that the land is worth around $30million or something to that affect. Unless people want to pitch in and buy the land out from the large company, then there is really nothing else we can do, except maybe go out there and chain our bodies and jeeps to the front gate!!!!

WV(0)IIIIIII(0) · **Posted:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:27 am

There is something that can be done. Show up for the Monthly ride, pay the fees (which will go to help with attorney cost) and have a good day wheeling.

Quote:

dirtykj Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's way off the mark ... really ...

I personally can't get that excited about a private business running into issues. If it's a national park closing access to OHV, that's something else.

This is the reason why we are loosing land to ride on. Because people don't care until it directly affects them. The thing that most people don't understand is that with legal OHV parks closing for whatever reason just adds fuel to the machines that work to close off land in National Parks also. The next monthly ride is Feb. 3-4. I know the Super Bowl is on the 4th but there is no excuse for the 3rd.

Eddo · **Joined:** Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:01 pm **Posts:** 1214

dirtykj wrote:

DaveKJ02 wrote:

Congrats! The ONLY jeep board on the net where nobody seems to care that one of the premier offroad parks on the entire east coast may be closing. THIS is a true indication why manufacturers dont care about the KJ....because we dont really care about wheeling, just warranties and gas mileage.

That's way off the mark ... really ...

I personally can't get that excited about a private business running into issues. If it's a national park closing access to OHV, that's something else.

Just a bit of a side note and some of the terminology with government land that often confuses people. It did me.

According the National Forest Service, National Parks, BLM, etc we drive street-legal OHV (off-highway vehicles). There is big difference when in comes to street legal and non-street legal OHVs.

First, allot of areas are that closed to non-street legal OHVs are open to street-legal OHVs. That has been the case for quite some time.

Second, allot of use consider what we do off-road driving or off-roading. Once again, according to the National Forest Service, National Parks, BLM, etc driving down a Forest Road, Service Road, old logging route, no matter how challenging or un-maintained typically is not considered off-road driving You are still driving on the road and it is designated as a legal highway, hence why they only allow street-legal OHVs. In their eyes you are driving a legal public road, thus you most be a licensed street-legal vehicle.

For example allot of the areas I have rode, particularly in National Forests, BLM, and open county lands are all closed to off-highway travel and only open to street-legal OHVs. They frequently have signs that say "Attention this area is closed to Off-Highway Vehicles. All, off-road travel is prohibited in the National Forest unless explicitly designated of OHV use. You man only travel on public roads and are only open to street-legal, licensed vehicles." All this means is you must stay on the trail (Forest Road, Fire Road, logging road, etc) and be operating a street-legal licensed vehicle, which most Jeeps area.

So if you call up a Ranger station and asking about off-roading most will tell you that is prohibited and they have not designate OHV area. However, make sure to ask about some forest roads and tell them you drive a licensed street-legal OHV.

Anyways, I'm sorry to see Paragon in trouble. It sounds like a nice area and I know how limited Public Lands are in the east. Hopefully, it will turn out well.

Jeephead1977 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:43 pm

This sounds like the Greed machine running in overdrive. Realistate developement is worth way more then a jeep park to whoever the business is that owns it. New managment came in and said what this guy has a 25 year lease I am sure we can screw them out of that. They want to make sure they hit the boom of developement money before the recession hits and land prices fall through the floor. Just have to make sure that everyone writes their newspapers and government make it as publically known as possible that such and such company is the one that is involved. I know in my home town Tyson foods bought out one of the businesses and everyone went on strike obviously Tyson wanted to force out the union with unreasonable terms took them a couple years but the papers and news had this info everywhere most grocery stores in the area still will not sell tyson meats products in there stores. I am pretty sure walmart sells it though. I think this is the best strategy hit them where it hurts in the pocket books. Big companies hate bad publicity so the bigger you make it the better it is. They had senators out there with the strikers it was an amazing effort on the peopels behalfs but in the end obviously the big boys won they usually always do. Whoever has the money and the lawyers has the power. In the end the little man always have to grab thier ankles and take it like a man Corperate usa has become such a nightmare for the little people. I know I went way off the subject here but it make angry to see how this happens in so many different ways every day.

dirtykj · **Posted:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:03 pm

Jeephead1977 wrote:

This sounds like the Greed machine running in overdrive.

That is exactly what this is. They are allowed to try, as long as they're not breaking any law. The sheeple are also allowed to buy or "invest", and ruin their finances. It's not our responsibility to prevent people from hurting themselves. They are adults. We're not their mommies and daddies.

To "WV(0)IIIIIII(0)" and "DaveKJ02", if this situation was anything different, I might have been inclined to do something about it. But, you see, it's just some questionable people looking for some GF's for maybe a few mortgage frauds on top. As long as we have cheap credit, and the secondary market for MBS that offloads risks, this kind of thing will continue.

It's not about Paragon. About the only thing I can do is hope that all parties involved lose their collective asses. Land owners lose Paragon lease, new builder defaults on land option, Paragon renews lease at drastically-reduced rate ... hey, there might be some good to come out of this.

WV(0)IIIIIII(0) · **Posted:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:01 pm

dirtykj wrote:

DaveKJ02 wrote:

Congrats! The ONLY jeep board on the net where nobody seems to care that one of the premier offroad parks on the entire east coast may be closing. THIS is a true indication why manufacturers dont care about the KJ....because we dont really care about wheeling, just warranties and gas mileage.

That's way off the mark ... really ...

I personally can't get that excited about a private business running into issues. If it's a national park closing access to OHV, that's something else.

I know as well as any other that this is about the all mighty dollar. But when you say that you can't get excited about a private business running into issues well that puts it into a different ball field. You as others may not live close enough to paragon to enjoy it so it does not affect you. And you as others may not be into the rock climbing, mud slinging side of your Jeep, and that is fine. But if you do enjoy the outdoors with your jeep than you should be concerend when land owners sell off there lands to builders. It is a major issue to me not only because I enjoy going to places with the jeep but I am a sportsman all the way around. The only land that is going to be left is a National Park and most of them like George Washington in Virginia is closing off more and more trails. When that happens people that can't get excited about a private bussiness running into issues will wish that they did get excited when they had the chance. This is not a jab at you "dirtyKJ" it is an issue that we as a 4wd community should get behind and show what support we can.

I plan to attend the monthly ride for Feb. and I would hope that there will be others. Right know that is all I can do.

Sport · **Posted:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:17 pm

You know this really stinks, I am moving to delaware in a few weeks and was getting all excited about taking my quads to Paragon. What can we do? I have never been there but I don't want it to close, where will I ride?!

Redwolf698 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:18 pm

Hmmmmm

I started with a 3 wheeler in 1981. From that point on, every magazine I have read, every forum, every motorcycle meet, every ATV meet N greet, and every Jeep connection I have been to, the subject of land loss has come up. The east coast is in dire need of additional support to maintain our land and ability to off-road.

I'm also a hunter, and watching the public land RAPIDLY disappear is frightening. Active groups like Ducks Unlimited and the NRA get my money because they fight for my desires and represent me and my thoughts. Can anyone point to a NATIONAL off-road association that spends it money to buy land, rehabilitate areas, and lobby politicians?

Paragon was fun. A shade too far away for me, but it's got a lot to offer, and it's a shame that the land owners are not part of our happy family. I wonder if anyone has offered to take them to a monthly meeting, bring them out and show them what fun the land is right now. I wonder if any attempt has been made by the off-road community to open the lines of communication and determine the feasibility of continuing forward with them.

Alas it is what it is, right?

jason thompson · **Posted:** Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:35 am

Guys I know all about loosing GOOD wheeling land to development
every year we ,LA4X4, loose some land we manage to get some from ome one else but for some reason or another we loose some

We also lost the right to wheel in one of the biggest mud pits in the world it would be measured in sq miles not acers
but thanks to folks hat can not or will not follow the rules we lost it
I dont like mud but the reason we lost it was due to the folks who were going outhere giving the rangers a hard time
"a few bad apples"

We loose private land that only LA4X4 could use to wheel and only when hunting season was closed all the time some of it from folks going out there
when ther were not susosed to and some of it to development

This is also why I get so fired up when I see videos of guys flying through the mud at 50 mph
We lost any right to wheel at all in the National Parks ,wich had some good trails, thanks to irresposable wheeling guys going out and wheeling by them selfs and in a rig not set up for it then the park rangers have to bail them out

I think it would be a terable loss if any park closes public or private but the more we as a "off road community" can promote it as a family activity the better chance we have at keeping what we have

This is also why I can not understand why when I post up about the local rides I get little or no respoce
about 75% of the rides that I post have some connection to charity and in this way they get GOOD public exposure
we get to use public land for one of our yearly events that is 100% closed thnks to the fact that we are doing it for a good cause
The up side is that we get to do 4+ months of "prep work"
The best thing that we ALL can do is to get involved

Go to a jeepjamboree ,yeah it cost some money, but these are the people who are fighting for the land that you use on that jamboree
not Mark Smith offroading inc. but the local guys who "put on the show"
Go join a local club if you dont have one but have a group of guys who like to wheel then start one cause privte land owners would rather lt a club ride then a group of guys but by all means do it responsably and safly and show people that it is fun and family oriented
You can not imagine the responce people give who have never been to an organized trail ride but go out for the first time in nothing more than what they thought was "the family car" and drive up hills that thy can not walk up
give that to enogh people and keep them around and WE will loose less land

sorry for the length but it this is one of those things I take to heart having seen all what we have lost and knowing how hard it is to get it back
Jason

Gris · **Posted:** Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:32 pm

This site is really new, but I saw it on a local board.

http://www.save-paragon.com/

PARAGON MAY BE CLOSING

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