I think your stuck in the 80's. Please tell me how much troubleshooting you can do on this motor without diagnostic tools??
Please leave out all the basic fuel, air and electric stuff. I use fault codes just like the rest of us real world diesel mechs. Without codes you would be lost. What I meant in the original post was if your not getting a map code the sensor is working and in range. Nothing more. I have more important things to do than try to squeeze that last 1/10th of a mpg because my sensor is dirty. With an egr it will always be dirty. Clean away.


As to solutions, or as you so eloquently put it, "Fix it or sell it", quite a few here contribute to not only fixing the CRD shortcomings, almost all at their own expense, but also sharing that information freely. I don't see you contributing much except to install an Ebay Predator module, then lecturing others on how bad it is to give DC a reason to void warranties by using out of spec biofuel. That's really helpful. I think I see a trend here.

The predator was a mistake. I will freely admit that. Iwould advise all of you running one to pull it. I ran mine a couple of weeks to check the mpg claims. It adds substantial power at the cost of drivability. It does not give any mpg advantage.
The bio-fuel issue is something I have dealt with alot. I have seen lots of problems with it. Most people don't have the time and devotion it takes to use it successfully. Plus at high concentrations it puts added stress to a fuel system that has no room for more. Another reason the predator came off. It says it doesn't raise fuel rail psi but it does. Just not over max spec.

I'm not defending d/c and I do not work for them. If you think bad mouthing your dealer and ranting and raving over things will get them fixed your wrong. I actually feel sorry for the crd mechanics out there. Take your week class and poof your now a diesel mechanic! It's really unbelievable they can fix anything.



If you call surfing the net to find someone who can install an aftermarket torque converter on your dime a solution then I guess I don't have any solutions for all of you. The same with extra coolers,fuel filters and oil filters. I just drive mine. I work on this crap for a living and I hate to work on my own stuff. Most everyone here sweats the small stuff. The crd is labor intensive enough.

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2005 sport crd-SOLD No regrets

Have only one comment; Have wrenched on diesels in the 80's, 90's and 00's both with and without the electronic toys. I see a lot of diesel no-no's going on in the background with this engine. At almost 25K miles, yet to get a CEL from mine despite all the trouble.

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2005 Liberty Sport CRD, Lt Khaki, sunroof

Thankful to now be an EX-CRD owner.

How much troubleshooting can we do? Just as much as you could do with any other turbo/intercooled diesel ever built. Its just a diesel engine they all work basically the same way. We just have EGR's, CCV, variable turbos, and Common rail fueling with slick little injectors. Please leave out all the basic fuel air and electric stuff? Are you serious? Thats essential information that any good diesel mechanic would absolutely require. Especially if there were no diagnostics ports to help him out. I would love it if the only computer managed thing on this engine was the fueling system timing etc and maybe the variable turbo. Heck the stupid computer is oftentimes the root of the problem. And it will not tell you if your filter is getting clogged...or if your CAC is full of oil, if your turbo seals are leaking, if the map sensor is dirty,if thhe air filter needs changed or if you have air in your fuel lines. It wont tell you if your Transmission is too hot unless its too late already, it wont tell you if your transmission fluid, engine oil, power steering fluid or coolant is low until its at a critical level and causing damage already.

Give us traditional boost, egt, tranny temp/pressure, fuel pressure, intake temp, oil temp/pressure, gauges that I dont need a scanner to read, throw in a filterminder and few tools and a lot of people here could tell you exactly what is going wrong with this engine. All without a single fault code. You could look at boost pressure and say "hey thats not acting right". But if the sensor is working and the values fall somewhere in the acceptable range the "diagnostics" system wouldnt tell you a thing. Even if the sensor wasnt recording actual values. What gets me is that all of that information that I mentioned and more is available to the techs, and most of them still dont know what to do. They are just parts changers.

You should know I am not just another upset CRD owner, in fact my CRD has never been back to the dealer since we drove it off the lot and is at 23K miles in the 8months that we have owned it. I hope and pray that I never have a problem, but if/when it does the great people on this board will more than likely have the solution that I need.

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It may be that your only purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

06 CRD Sport
Built 5/11/06
Jeep Green
Rocklizard diff cover
V6 Airbox

Complaining to a auto mfg is like me complaining to my wife about the check book and the checking account. Thirty years later and she still does the same stuff, why should D/C do any different.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

Give me a break. The only place the Predator plugs in is the fuel rail pressure sensor, and you didn't have the least clue that it might be monkeying around with fuel pressure? If you'd done some investigating, as you've told the rest of us we should have done, you'd have found plenty of info out there that said it did raise fuel pressure contrary to advertised claims, and that was discussed at length on this and other diesel forums ages ago.

"I work on this crap for a living and I hate to work on my own stuff" - I think that pretty well sums it up. I know a few people where I work with that attitude. As long as they build X number of trucks each shift and get a paycheck at the end of the week, they could give a darn whether or not they built it correctly.

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Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

I think you're confusing reading codes, which are required with today's electronic systems, with good troubleshooting skills. Good troubleshooting skills will use knowledge of mechanical engineering and electronic systems designed to diagnose symptoms with equal complementary expertise. Just the ability to plug in a scanner and read a code, and replace a part that seems related to the code is not skilled troubleshooting. Too many dealerships today have made "no code, no problem" so much a part of their business strategy that junior level mechanics actually believe that idiom. That philosophy is driven solely by the warranty economics of dealership to manufacture reimbursement policies. You won't find that philosophy in many successful indy shops. They can't afford to think like that.

Having grown up working(for free as an underage volunteer employee) in a relatives family owned indy garage, I rebuilt many engines before I was 18 and later went off to college for electronics engineering degree. Having worked on engines with mechanical points/rotor/condensor and generators with mechanical copper coil voltgae regulators, up through solid state electronic systems on automotive applications, I believe that effective troubleshooting is a skillful art. It requires a certain personality style. Someone who has an ability to sweat the details, without losing sight of original problem. Not many mechanics possess it, especially since the advent of mechanic schools, where the increased volume of graduates pulls in a larger volume of personnel who don't have a knack of all things mechanical. The same style of mechanic who missed the real problem on non-electronic mechanical systems will misdiagnose today's electronic systems by using the fault code as authoritative. The common failure I saw is memorizing what parts were related to specific failures over time, then not fully diagnosing new problems because familiarity with the problem part led them to replace parts too quickly. Didn't hurt the bottom line in the short run either.

When working on electronic systems right out of college, I noticed the same pattern with electronic techs/engineers - a failed system would come in for repair or worse, out of spec performance. In the first case, they'd find the failed component, replace it and send it on its way, only to have it return a few days or weeks later, because they didn't bother to look into enough detail as to what caused the failure. In the 2nd case, they could not determine the reason for out of spec results. It required much more knowledge of system engineering, or more than they were willing to invest. Many times the failure was caused by a secondary component, seemingly not related to the failure. The best electronic techs/engineers I ever met had 2 qualities that made them very good. They knew the system theory in minute detail and could think well beyond the failed component (an anology to today's fault code). They got inside the machine. They sweated the details - they studied them on their own time, experimented/modified and tested/observed and shared their knowledge among themselves. It went beyond a job. Similar to what's going on this forum, including the use of the Internet to locate better performing components. I know of a couple of young mechanics who read this site just to get better acquainted with what's going on with the CRD on a larger scale than their workplace.

Later on I worked on another degree in computer software engineering and found the same kind of coding skill phenomena with coders. I never worked with software for a living by choice, preferring hardware to software, but I've written enough for my own use and have several software engineer friends who keep me updated to understand how you're provided a set of specifications, maybe for a single subroutine, without any idea of what the overall program does, especially if the owner is trying to keep proprietary knowledge from discovery, by purposely breaking up the software coding among different shops. Especially frustrating for some coders is to attempt to validate code or troubleshoot when the source code comments (when they exist at all) are written in 2 different non English languages!

So back to the MAP sensor - having degraded performance to the point where it changes shift points and engine performance, without setting a code does not mean there isn't really a problem. In this case it means the designers of the fault management system are far removed from working knowledge of mechanics, working from a set of software specifications, under a budget constraint, and with a limited set of data channels, memory and processor constraints, and with a system designed for a large number of vehicles, not just a CRD. It may well be that whoever worked on the software for the MAP has no idea of what a sooty intake looks like, or ever seen an R428 engine, much less the proximity of the MAP sensor to the EGR feed on the intake tube, or the amount of soot that's going to cover the sensor. I doubt their specs included soot induced degraded sensor output adjustment routines.

We're living with mass produced Bosch components, with software likely worked on by engineers in several continents and modified to meet changing US EPA specs. That does not bode well for an optimized engine management system. So not having a code doesn't mean a problem does not exist - it can easily mean the ems system price point doesnt support that level of monitoring support. If you look at the economic budget constraints and the number of auto manufactures using a general purpose EMS, that level of sophistication probably does not fit on the price point of the EDC-16 ems. That kind of design does require that anyone who works on today's engines will have to understand more than fault codes to effectively troubleshoot them. The codes don't tell the whole story. If you look up the codes for the MAP sensor, you'll find little more than monitoring for open/short circuit, out of performance range(but no range details provided), or intermittent operation. It likely doesn't cover marginal or out of spec readings, or differential comparison of long term readings or how fast the temperature should change in relationship to ambient temperature on startup, as measured by engine coolant temps for example.

So yes, I'll go with the people on this forum who research by whatever means they have available, to fix or enhance the CRD, then share their knowledge, as well as their frustrations, over just driving it. Anytime.

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

On my other forum, there is a CRD tech that says he has never replaced a MAP sensor. Nor does he claim there is an issue. If I read you correctly, are you saying he is simply a plug and play type of a tech? I feel the techs are sort of military in their thinking in that they are payed not to think too much, but rather, simply follow the code defects and trade parts. Old timers were much more capable of troubleshooting without the aid of modern electronics in my opinion. Before I cleaned my MAP sensor, I was noticing a quicker downshift going up hills than before. I don't drive the Jeep much because it is usually out of town with my wife. I noticed it was struggling to get up the same hills that it used to just lug up in 5th gear.

He might be, or he might not even know there is a problem with the soot levels with these sensors. If he is paid for warranty work, he won't have the time to investigate performance degradation. If he is a code reader diagnostician, he'll never know there's a problem. Any that troubleshoot solely by codes will have lsomewhat limited data to use in their diagnosis. If he spent 5 minutes to pull a CRD MAP sensor, even without a code, he might add another data point to his knowledge.

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2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

Ranger1, your last two posts said it perfectly.

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My Jeep Liberty page

ORM, air filter mod, and less restrictive exhaust has increased my 'everyday' driving 3 mpg.

Ditto!

I call todays technicians in what ever field you choose as "component swappers". The art of diagnosis is long gone because the culture of "it's cheaper to throw away (component swap) than invest time to diagnose and fix" has permiated into every nook of electro/mechanical repair.

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2005 Black CRD Limited w/105,000 miles
Mann Provent 200, Airbox Mod, ORM Mod
New 545RFE, TC & Redesigned pump @ 25,020 miles
New EGR Flow Control Valve @ 25,020 miles
New Transfer Case input/output seals @ 32,787 miles
SEGR Kit @ 52,000 miles
SunCoast TC and Transgo Shift Kit @ 52,000 miles

Quite true, all one has to do is look at the radio & TV repair industry today. Gone! It became cheaper to throw the old TV away and buy a new one at Wal-Mart. Adjusted for inflation a 25" Consoul TV I paid $850 for in 1976 was in todays dollars about $3000, so the 37" LCD TV I paid $900 for last Nov was like buying a B&W TV in early 70's, and we bought a 21" B&W in 1973 for $150 and we thought we were living the good life.

That is scary when you think about things and what they cost and its effect on how our world is changing.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

Yea, and when I was a kid, we used to run around in the neiborhood with toy plastic guns and play war. Wouldn't go over big now.

Well depending what part of the country your in and who your neighbors are, you might be right. But, it's all legal as long as there is a red cap on the toy firearm muzzle!
The adults just graduated to "paintball wars" instead!

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2005 Black CRD Limited w/105,000 miles
Mann Provent 200, Airbox Mod, ORM Mod
New 545RFE, TC & Redesigned pump @ 25,020 miles
New EGR Flow Control Valve @ 25,020 miles
New Transfer Case input/output seals @ 32,787 miles
SEGR Kit @ 52,000 miles
SunCoast TC and Transgo Shift Kit @ 52,000 miles

I have been seeing toy guns W/O the red tips, are people buying old toy guns from yard sales or what? I saw a soft pellet gun ($15) that was so real looking if a teen ager had been showing it in a threating manor I would have shot the kid thinking he was armed with a real pistol. The pellet pistol was plastic and scarry in its detail of a S&W auto pistol like the one that I carry. Believe it or not this pistol was in a pawn shop where guns are sold on a regular basis, and I have never even seen a teenage in the shop let alone a 10 year old kid. The guy was appealing to adults with kids to buy for first pistol, not realizing it would be seen as a toy by a child. I did tell him that also, and he said he had not thought of it like that, but I was probably correct and maybe he will advise buys.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

Remember the comic Gallagher, the guy with the Sledge-O-Matic? Part of his standard routine was "looking at the world with a new set of eyes" - in essence showing people some of the inherent oxymorons and hypocrisy in our culture. Basically a milder, Rated G for General Audiences version of what George Carlin used to do.

Still have some of George's albums on cassette and 8 track. Every once in a while, I go back and listen to them just for kicks. Scary and sad part is, they seem to make even more sense and to be even more relevant now than they did 30 years ago. To me at least, doesn't say much about where this country's gone as a whole.

Looks like we can safely say this thread has been throughly hijacked!

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Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

I don't see an issue with good clean discussion, once the paydirt of the original thread has gone away.

Same here, just doing the original poster the courtesy of acknowledging "yes, I know this wasn't your original topic", and giving him/her the opening to step in and redirect it if they desire.

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Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Cool!

Complaining is what we were talking about wasn't it??? I like it when these threads get nostalgic or about something off the beaten path once the real problem if any has been solved.

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91 MB 300D 2.5L Turbo. Her's

05 MB E320 CDI. Mine

Evolution???