Drive-By-Wire (Kill it Now !!!!) UPDATE: TRADED IT IN !!!

O_Dogg · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:12 am

LiLredLibby wrote:

When did you but it?By law you have three days to return or exchange anything purchased new if your not satisfied with it.
Go back down to the dealer you bought it from,make the MANAGER drive it for a while,then nicely ask him if he would drive with his family in it until it learns his habits.Just remember to BE NICE,cause you'll draw alot more bees with honey than you will with salt. :wink:

Ron

actually bee's like vinegar or beer, old gardening tip :wink:

ratmloud · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:16 am

Se7enLC wrote:

My dealer told me that the liberty could "pop a wheelie" in 4-low.

lol

Donkeykong · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:25 am

Boynamedsue,
I have experienced the same problem, (Haven't read the whole thread yet, but going off the first post) with the delayed throttle response, but I do have to comment that my 2001 VW golf 1.8t was also a manual transmission, fly-by-wire and I experienced none of the problems or symptoms that you mentioned (and I have experienced in my libby) in my VW.

I would go out on a limb and say that the VW system was a bosch as almost every other electronic device in the car was bosch, but I am uncertain that is the case.

I will ask about it when I go to pick up my part from the dealer today, and I will read the entire thread before I reply.

I hope I haven't put my foot in my mouth, I'm at work and unable to spend too much time reading threads.
-Mark

moose · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:43 am

DnA Diesel wrote:

It's the engine mapping, the throttle position sensor simply reports the accelerator position...the mapping determines how the engine (and an electronic transmission if so-equipped) will respond to the driver's demand. The electonic throttle is, IMO, getting a bum rap here.

Note below that the TPS in the info page's example is being polled at 20kHz or 20,000 times/second. Some CAN-based systems (controller-area-network) in cars are polling beyond 50kHz with data rates amongst components beyond 500kBPS.
http://www.picotech.com/auto/applications/electronic_throttle_control.html

Cheers,
Duey

Big pipes are good, but bad algorithms suck

BoyNamedSue · **Joined:** Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:32 pm **Posts:** 66

Donkeykong wrote:

Boynamedsue,
I have experienced the same problem, (Haven't read the whole thread yet, but going off the first post) with the delayed throttle response, but I do have to comment that my 2001 VW golf 1.8t was also a manual transmission, fly-by-wire and I experienced none of the problems or symptoms that you mentioned (and I have experienced in my libby) in my VW.

I would go out on a limb and say that the VW system was a bosch as almost every other electronic device in the car was bosch, but I am uncertain that is the case.

I will ask about it when I go to pick up my part from the dealer today, and I will read the entire thread before I reply.

I hope I haven't put my foot in my mouth, I'm at work and unable to spend too much time reading threads.
-Mark

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one with this problem.
Have you noticed any improvement with more mileage, or does it pretty much stay the same?
Also have you gotten used to it over time so that it's not a big deal anymore?
It is annoying the hell out of me right now, so I'm hoping it will get better or I'll get used to it.
It's not bad enough that I'll get hit due to the delayed response, but it really sucks when you shift gears and go to accelerate and you get nothing. It has really taken away the point of a manual transmission.

DnA Diesel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:13 pm

moose wrote:

DnA Diesel wrote:

It's the engine mapping, the throttle position sensor simply reports the accelerator position...the mapping determines how the engine (and an electronic transmission if so-equipped) will respond to the driver's demand. The electonic throttle is, IMO, getting a bum rap here.

Note below that the TPS in the info page's example is being polled at 20kHz or 20,000 times/second. Some CAN-based systems (controller-area-network) in cars are polling beyond 50kHz with data rates amongst components beyond 500kBPS.
http://www.picotech.com/auto/applications/electronic_throttle_control.html

Cheers,
Duey

Big pipes are good, but bad algorithms suck

EXACTLY, Moose!

SavageUrge · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:56 pm

Quote:

It's true we have no mechanical connection between the accelerator and the engine controls.

There is a mechanical connection to the throttle body. At least there is on my '03. It's on the left of the throttle body. There are one or two cables (depending on if you have cruise control). I've been driving my 5-Speed since it was 3 miles new and never had a problem with the acceleration or hesitation. Not ot be rude, but I think maybe there are some drivers on here that need to hone their skills with a clutch and shifter. The hesitation and jerking these people describe sounds to me like they are letting he clutch out all the way before getting the RPM's up to match the engines speed. It's like trying to go 15 mph in 4th gear. Doesn't work well!

BoyNamedSue · **Joined:** Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:32 pm **Posts:** 66

Quote:

Not ot be rude, but I think maybe there are some drivers on here that need to hone their skills with a clutch and shifter. The hesitation and jerking these people describe sounds to me like they are letting he clutch out all the way before getting the RPM's up to match the engines speed. It's like trying to go 15 mph in 4th gear. Doesn't work well!

That may be true for some drivers, but believe me, it does hesitate.
An example of when it hesitates that couldn't possibly be driver error is when I slow down to 2nd to turn a sharp corner, and then when I release the clutch while pushing the accelerator down there is no power. Even when the clutch is completely let out and the accelerator pushed down there still is no power, then all of a sudden the power just kicks in without me doing anything. I'm just holding the accelerator in one position while this happens.
(I've tried pushing the accelerator more, less, or letting the clutch out slower, faster. It doesn't matter)

MurrayA · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:01 pm

I don't think it's drive by wire.

Sounds exactly like the ESP problem I had with my '06. The engine would regularily stutter and stumble while up-shifting and accelerating into turns or when pulling into traffic.

It took 10 trips to the dealer over 8 months from new to get it resolved because the problem is undetectable with DCX diagnostics. Apparently the problem is with the wheel speed sensors causing false triggering of the ESP. They ended up replacing the PCM and all the wheel speed sensors.... twice! Even new front sensors didn't work properly and had to be replaced again.

It seems much better now, though the ESP system will still kick in if I accelerate so aggresively that the wheels slip.

Don't accept any excuses from the dealer. It's not a "Jeep thing"!

I had to be persistant with my complaints. Demand that the service manager rides with you and he acknowledges the problem exists.

07Latitude · **Posted:** Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:43 pm

I hate the "drive by wire" or electronic throttle control in my 07. My girlfriend has an 06. Same engine, trans (both are autos), transfercase, everything. Hers is SO much more responsive with a cable-driven accelerator it isn't even funny. I get random hesitations that hers doesn't as well. My throttle response is smooth, but it's delayed and a lot less "responsive" in general.

I've also tried the recalibration procedure posted elsewhere on here to no avail. Oh well, I'll live with it.

BoyNamedSue · **Joined:** Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:32 pm **Posts:** 66

This Jeep is a Nightmare !!!!

I said earlier that I've never seen the ESP light turn on, not even when I tried.
Well I've seen it now.
I pulled out of my parking lot like I've done close to 100 times now, in 1st gear, the exact same way I always pull out and the power just cuts out completely, and the esp light flashes 2 or 3 times. (dry, flat, suburbia road, normal acceleration)
It freaked me out so bad I had butterflies in my stomach because it just came out of nowhere and surprised the hell out of me.
It started going again after a couple seconds, but if I was pulling in front of traffic or had someone behind me who knows what could have happened.

I am just depressed as I can be about this purchase. I don't have a lot of money, so this was my dream vehicle.
I guarantee the dealer will be useless. It's not like they can duplicate a freak ESP occurrence which could have gotten me injured or killed.
And they tell my the power sag I have at times is the drive-by-wire system.
My only choice is to get rid of this thing, and the depreciation loss will be very painful since I don't make a lot of money.
Shoot me now !

DnA Diesel · **Posted:** Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:30 am

BNS, don't worry...for the time being, I would turn the ESP off every time I started the Jeep. Keep in mind you're turning the stability/traction control off, but I'd rather turn that off and have full power authority than have the thing mistakenly think I should be applying a little (lot) less gas. As noted earlier, this sounds like an ESP sensor problem. The dealers flop around like dying fish when there isn't something that gives them a nice tidy check engine light with a stored code...I partially feel for them given the growing complexity of today's vehicles, but the other half of me doesn't because they are part of a business that should stand behind its products...not just try to get cash out of you as quickly as possible off the showroom floor. I would consider going in again noting to them that you have had a number of Jeep owners and mechanics point you in the direction of an ESP fault that does not manifest itself by setting a CEL or storing any codes in the ECM (several owners I might add who are computer and/or electrical engineers who have worked on a number of electronic-controlled vehicles -- I have a full mapping of my 540i's DME power mapping on my computer as we speak, and I have complete visibility on all 27 controllers in my Jetta TDI...the Jeep is the first vehicle I have not been able to get into to see what the heck is going wrong with it)

FWIW, on my own issue of crappy fuel mileage, I had a very good talk with the service manager at another dealership in town. He understood me completely, including my frustrations that I am getting 50-70% worse mileage than advertised, my Jeep has set no ECM codes and that the other dealer told me this was "normal as a diesel breaks-in" (which he admitted is bull-crap.) He was pretty up front about not having alot of CRD experience in his shop (their dealership only sold two CRDs ever and only one is still in town hence the owner didn't send the guys on anything but the intro course -- I can't blame him) , but he said he does have one of the best Cummins guys in the region and he is willing to do some research with Engineering, then have me come in when he has something to go on. His Cummins guy was there and nodded quietly when I mentioned EGR, FCV, etc... We'll see how this round works out.

Good luck with your beastie!

Cheers,
Duey

swyszomirski · **Joined:** Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:59 am **Posts:** 286

I will admit that i have not read all the replies to this post, but I can say that I have never have a lack of power problem with my 04 5sp. When I want power, I get it. I would say, the less the car thinks for you the better, ie, kill the esp.

stephen

moose · **Posted:** Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:58 am

It is CRITICAL that you keep good documentation on this issue. You also need to call DCX's customer service issue

hooperswish · **Posted:** Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:29 pm

I think macattack had a ton of posts with similar sounding problems and his fix finally came with the wheel speed sensors. My '06 runs beautifully, no complaints. very responsive with good mileage.(But I do drive conservatively with the kiddies in the vehicle with me).
Good luck...
Steve

BoyNamedSue · **Joined:** Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:32 pm **Posts:** 66

I just discovered my Jeep wasn't as bad as I had thought.
Because.......now it's 10 times worse !!!!!

Now I either have an incredibly worse power sag or a slippling clutch or both !
In 1st gear now the rpm's go up, but the speed doesn't increase like it used to. Same in 2nd gear....a jogger could keep up with me.
The power sag is way worse. Now it does it for seconds instead of just a second. And it does it just about all the time instead of occasionally.
I've never felt a slippling clutch in all my years of driving a manual, so I don't even know what it feels like, but I've heard it described like this.

So back to the dealer I go tonight.
I couldn't have possibly burned up the clutch with 2000 miles, could I? I've never smelled anything and I'm driving pretty conservatively.
Now I'll have to pay for a rental car with money I don't have because my money goes to Jeep payments.
How do I get out of this mess?
:cry:

(I now have an excel sheet documenting all of my problems, and I've also just sent a long e-mail to customer service at Jeep.com)

bmg9b · **Posted:** Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:24 pm

I've got an '06 with the 6-spd and it drives like a dream. I've never had a hesitation or shutter issue... ever. I can easily make the tires chirp shifting from 1st to 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd. I've got a little over 16k miles, too... so I don't think the problem is going to show up in the future.

Best of luck with your problem! Sounds like more than the standard shuttering issue people are experiencing.

By the way, I'm trying to sell it if anyone is interested.

BoyNamedSue · **Joined:** Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:32 pm **Posts:** 66

Quote:

I've got an '06 with the 6-spd and it drives like a dream. I've never had a hesitation or shutter issue... ever. I can easily make the tires chirp shifting from 1st to 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd. I've got a little over 16k miles, too... so I don't think the problem is going to show up in the future.

Best of luck with your problem! Sounds like more than the standard shuttering issue people are experiencing.

You should feel lucky.
I was getting ready to go to the dealer a little bit ago, and I wanted to test drive it for a while first.
Went for about 45 minutes and it rarely acted like it did on my 30 minute drive home from work.
If I take it to them now they're just going to think I'm a nut, and I would think the same if I was them.
It still drove like crap, but it would be hard to notice unless you were the driver.
What on earth could be broken on the way home and not broken on a test drive?

moose · **Posted:** Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:14 am

BoyNamedSue wrote:

Quote:

I've got an '06 with the 6-spd and it drives like a dream. I've never had a hesitation or shutter issue... ever. I can easily make the tires chirp shifting from 1st to 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd. I've got a little over 16k miles, too... so I don't think the problem is going to show up in the future.

Best of luck with your problem! Sounds like more than the standard shuttering issue people are experiencing.

You should feel lucky.
I was getting ready to go to the dealer a little bit ago, and I wanted to test drive it for a while first.
Went for about 45 minutes and it rarely acted like it did on my 30 minute drive home from work.
If I take it to them now they're just going to think I'm a nut, and I would think the same if I was them.
It still drove like crap, but it would be hard to notice unless you were the driver.
What on earth could be broken on the way home and not broken on a test drive?

Find out what your state's Lemon Law's are. Document the heck out of this. Tell them to keep it for a few days (if you can) and have them give you a rental.

I'm going through the Lemon Law here in Ohio. This truck is great, except for the dawgone computer system.

humptyjumped · **Posted:** Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:40 pm

Automatic the way to go.....

I like having one hand free to eat a burger and the
other to talk on the cell. :lol:

Drive-By-Wire (Kill it Now !!!!) UPDATE: TRADED IT IN !!!

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