I believe this was the same on the KJ, you could not get the full-time 4wd transfer case with a manual transmission.
Anyone know why this is the case?

There is binding issues with the manual tranny and fulltime t-case when on dry surfaces and in fulltime 4wd.

Interesting... Though it seems to me that this is something that could easily be solved rather than just decide not to offer the combination. If there are binding issues it seems to me like there are perhaps some shortcomings with the design that should be addressed.

Nobody's trying to fix the "shortcomings",try to find a vehicle with FullTime 4x4(not AWD,2 way different setups) with a manual tranny these days.Now there are older pickups with FullTime 4x4 and a stick but those where a HD versions and the dymanics of the STII and those old t-cases are way different.

Ok... Enlighten me please, exactly how is full-time 4x4 different from AWD?

Fulltime 4wd is when you are always sending power to both the front and rear axles,sometimes you have the option of parttime 4wd(selecttrac t-case) and always have the option of 4-lo.

AWD has a F/R axle but it is in FWD or RWD(depending on the vehicle) until one axle slips(many use the ABS sensors for this) and then sends power to the other axle for added traction,no slector switch or t-case lever and 99% of the time no other option like 4-lo.Subaru's are famous for there AWD platforms,Mercedes has it to(4traction or something like that),and even Porshe uses AWD.


There is a huge differenc between 4WD vehicle and a vehicle with AWD.

I think you are confusing full-time 4WD and part-time 4WD.

Full-time 4WD means that you can drive it around full-time, whether you are on smooth sticky pavement or on dirt. In full-time 4WD the transfer case must include a differential so that the front and rear axles can turn at different speeds (while both still receiving power). This is exactly the same functionality as AWD except on AWD it is usually called center differential rather than transfer case.


Part-time 4WD you can only use part of the time because the front and rear axles are locked together and will bind when turning on try surfaces.


This is completely independent of the type of transmission used. If Jeep cannot make full-time 4WD work with a manual transmission there is a problem with the design in my opinion and rather than just deciding that they won't offer full-time 4WD with a manual transmission they should fix the issue.

hell, trying to find any car with a manual transmission in the united states can be tricky

_________________
2007 Jeep Liberty XSport Competition Edition
Cragar Soft 8's
Alpine iDA-X300
Communications System Provided by: Cobra CB
Navigation provided by: Garmin

I'm not confusing fulltime with part time 4wd.Sorry but you got it backwards,fulltime 4WD is not like AWD,fulltime 4WD you are driving(sending torque) to all 4 wheels(yes the the select trac has a center diff to allow for F/R axles turning at different speeds).AWD is not sending torque to all 4 wheels until wheel slipage is detected,AWD t-cases use a viscuase(spelling?) type center diff that when slippage occures then it locks to send power to the other axle,some now use a electronicly controlled center diff to do the same thing only faster.

Now on some fulltime available t-cases(like the Select Trac) also have part time 4wd,2wd,and 4-low,some fulltime cases like the ones used in the H1(NV218) only have 4hi(fulltime),4hi lock(locks the center diff,parttime 4WD),and 4-low---no matter what you do it's always driving all 4 wheels.In AWD vehicles(mostly cars and small SUV's) you rarely have any control over if it is 2wd or 4wd,it does it on it's own and it never drives all 4 wheels unless wheel slip is detected,and AWD t-cases are known to be weaker then full fledged t-cases.

*viscous coupling*

i would like to note that some AWD systems, like those used in manual transmission subarus and the last generation toyota rav4, do have a 50/50 torque split front and rear. i think the haldex systems used in volvos use like a 70/30 split and 4motion in volkswagens is computer monitored so that can be any configuration under the sun, lol

_________________
2007 Jeep Liberty XSport Competition Edition
Cragar Soft 8's
Alpine iDA-X300
Communications System Provided by: Cobra CB
Navigation provided by: Garmin

Yep viscous,sorry I can't spell(hoced on fonics worced 4 me!).

But the key differenc between fulltime 4WD and AWD is AWD is always on and only only sends power to where it is needed,fulltime 4wd is always sending power to the F/R axles.

also, the suzuki grand vitara has a full time 4WD system available with both manual and auto transmissions

_________________
2007 Jeep Liberty XSport Competition Edition
Cragar Soft 8's
Alpine iDA-X300
Communications System Provided by: Cobra CB
Navigation provided by: Garmin

i think as technology expands with the aids of traction controls and stability systems, its getting harder to tell which system is best, so it really up to the consumers needs. typically AWD systems are more fuel friendly whereas 4WD is more rugged and allow you to go a little further off of the road. i like having a lo range, especially in maryland where sometimes you have to power thru or over snow banks to get in and out of your driveway, so my heart will always go with a 4WD system. most all wheel drive sysetms are just for light duty and snowy road conditions and i like to be able to go a bit further than that...

_________________
2007 Jeep Liberty XSport Competition Edition
Cragar Soft 8's
Alpine iDA-X300
Communications System Provided by: Cobra CB
Navigation provided by: Garmin

A little better explination between 4wd and AWD-----http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/diff4WD_AWD.html

I thought the Subaru was more like a 55/45 or 60/40 split. I seem to remember reading that awhile ago. Could be wrong though, wouldn't be the first time. But an Outback was what I was actually looking for when I got the KJ and I did do some research. Not that it matters to anyone here... I just thought the front wheels got a little more torque on Suby's.

_________________
Ron


"There are few problems in life the liberal application of duct tape can't solve."

thats true, the automatic transmission subarus have a different center differential that uses a multi-plate wet clutch pack that varies the torque split continuously. manual transmissions use a viscous coupling that is a set 50/50 split until slippage occurs

_________________
2007 Jeep Liberty XSport Competition Edition
Cragar Soft 8's
Alpine iDA-X300
Communications System Provided by: Cobra CB
Navigation provided by: Garmin

I guess we're splitting hairs here but what you are saying is still not right. AWD and full-time 4WD is exactly the same thing. Now, there are many different flavors and configurations of AWD/full-time 4WD.
Taking your example of having one axle driving normally with the ability to send torque to the other axle when slippage is detected. This is how the Quadra-Drive on WJ Grand Cherokees work. (Is the Grand Cherokee AWD?) The older (ZJ) Grands had a semi viscous coupling with a default 50/50 split between front and rear.

Audi cars (arguably one of the pioneer of AWD cars) with the Torsen center diff has had a 50/50 front/rear torque split from the beginning (until just recently when they started changing it to ~40/60 to give a more RWD feel). Are Audis 4WD? Per your definition they would be.
There are actually very few AWD cars that are driven completely by one axle until power is needed at the other axle. Even the FWD setups with added AWD like the haldex setup used by volvo and the smaller Audi/VWs do by default send some torque to the rear (Volvo does 70/30 Audi/VW 50/50).

Either way, I maintain my point that if Jeep cannot get the selec-trac transfer case to work in full-time 4WD (or AWD if you will) with the manual transmission there is an issue with either one of those components or the design of the drive train itself.

In a "conceptual" sort of way I would like to say that AWD is something that is just always on, no selections to be done by the driver like in a car, and 4WD is what you find in a Jeep where you have selectable high/low range, lockable transfer case/differentials and that sort of thing.

The underlying technology of how the power is sent to which axle is so vastly different that there is no way of really saying that one is AWD and one is 4WD.

In the strictest sense I suppose that 4WD should mean that all 4 wheels are powered under any circumstance. I.e. all differentials locked. But that would mean that very few vehicles (only Wrangler rubicon and Mercedes G-class) would have "real" 4WD.

No joke .

The issue is money. Chrysler doesn't want to go out and develop an all new four wheel drive system that runs on a manual transmission when almost 80% of the general (American) public just buys the automatic transmission anyway. There is no business case for it, otherwise it would already exsist.

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02 Liberty Limited
Silver Outside & Taupe Inside
Heated Seats, Sunroof & Infinity speakers
USA Spec I-Pod adaptor, Mopar Sub, Garmin GPS
Tow Package, Select-Trac
Rock Rails, Tow Hooks