C&D comparison - KK 9th????

kdub · **Joined:** Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:09 pm **Posts:** 21

I was at a friends place this past weekend and he gets Car and Driver and brought out the latest to show me an article they did called Mud Puppies 2008. They compared Jeep Liberty Limited 4x4, Hyundai Tucson Limited 4WD, 2008 Ford Escape XLT AWD, Saturn Vue XE AWD, Suzuki Grand Vitara 4WD, Mitsubishi Outlander ES 4WD, Nissan Rogue SL AWD, , Honda CR-V EX 4WD, Toyota RAV4 4x4.

Now since this article sounds like they are comparing the off road capabilities the KK should come out on top? Nope. The ranked it dead last. Not only was the test not really about off-road performance, the only off-road off-road "points" awarded in the test were out of 5 and the jeep got a 4 while most everyone else got a 3.

But get this, the liberty was the only one they were brave enough to try and get through a big mud hole, then they got it stuck, and it was downhill from there.

here is the article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/14473/ford-escape-v-honda-cr-v-v-hyundai-tucson-v-jeep-liberty-v-nissan-rogue-v-mitsubishi-outlander-v-saturn-vue-v-suzuki-grand-vitara-vtoyota-rav4.html

the article just pisses me off because they make it sound like an off-road test then score the KK pretty bad. For example, in the towing area they do list that the KK has the best towing of the bunch, but the one the tested did not have the towing package so it was graded second to last in towing. And the objective "Gotta Have It" and "Fun To Drive" were the lowest of the bunch too. Now I know why I don't get Car and Driver.

Edit: I did notice that the KK can hold the most beer cases with the back seats folded down at 42 cases. Woo-hoo!

unclejjg · **Posted:** Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:56 am

I think they made some valid claims, albeit, it is obvious that this test was not purely off-road. Of course that would be a ridiculous test with these vehicles.

They basically said upfront that the Suzuki and Jeep were the two off-road specialists of the group.

Further, I doubt that anybody here has had the opportunity to drive all of these vehicles, on the same ground, within the same day.

Their Facts: The Liberty was the heaviest, the slowest to 60 mph, and the latest braking vehicle. Also, (and I'll admit that I doubt they removed the air dam) several of the vehicles had better approach and departure angles.

Their opinions: The Liberty had the most truck-like feel, and due to its suspension, swayed the most. They had a hard time keeping it straight. The interior was cramped due to the foot-well and narrow seat cushions.

Again, I'll never have the opportunity to jump into each of these cars and drive them around all in one day. So I tend to at least listen to someone's opinion that has had that opportunity.

I guess it is unfortunate for me that the only other vehicle there that would remotely interest me is the Grand Vitara :evil:

......but at least I realize that I wouldn't be getting the industry leader in comfort and performance by purchasing either of the Vitara or the Liberty.

The Liberty is still a specialized vehicle, and much of the cost of the vehicle itself comes from the components necessary to deliver its 4x4 performance. The cost must be taken out of other things....otherwise you get a Land Rover...who could afford it?

elephantrider · **Posted:** Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:57 pm

ill agree that the approach angle leaves much to be desired.
the front of the new libby is chunky around the beltline.

like it has love handles all the way around ( ____ )

Guest · **Posted:** Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:54 pm

I think the KK, Vitara, and Sorento would be a good comparo test. the Sorento would be near the top of my list if i were going to buy a new SUV to take off road...it's built beefy

Katmandu · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:48 am

unclejjg wrote:

Further, I doubt that anybody here has had the opportunity to drive all of these vehicles, on the same ground, within the same day.

Well, how about somebody that has driven (4) of these vehicles + (2) similar models (7) Total....within a (2) week period on the same roads ? Will that do ? :?:

Well, that person is ME.

I drove the following in the last (2) weeks.

- 08 Liberty Limited 4x4
- 08 Nitro SLT 4x4
- 08 Suzuki Grand Vitara 4x4
- 07 Suzuki Grand Vitara 4x4
- 08 Ford Escape XLT AWD
- 08 Honda CR-V AWD
- 08 Honda Element EX AWD

unclejjg wrote:

Their opinions: The Liberty had the most truck-like feel, and due to its suspension, swayed the most. They had a hard time keeping it straight. The interior was cramped due to the foot-well and narrow seat cushions..

The Liberty rides FAR better than any of the TRUE SUVs. Crossover or CUVs really should NOT even be compared. They are comparing apples to oranges. The Honda CR-V rides like a car. Which it should. It's (and other CUVs) off-road capabilities are nowhere near the Libertys. Comparing them is idiotic IMHO!

I will admit, I DID notice a "flaw" in the 08 Liberty's handling department. Probably what C&D noticed as well. I think it is more of a front end alignment issue and poor dampning in the front shocks/springs.

CUVs (CR-V and the Nissan) are TOYS compared to the Liberty and the Grand Vitara. As are the Rav-4 and the Escape XLT. Both are cheap IMHO! Capable for suburban roads only.

The only vehicle that I drove that even came close to the Liberty was the Grand Vitara. Very nice vehicle overall, but road about the SAME as my 05 Liberty. Nowhere near the nice ride of the 08 Liberty!! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

The 08 Liberty IS a heavier, sturdier and MUCH SAFER vehicle overall IMHO and THAT is precisely why I'm "TRYING" to buy one for my wife!! I'll gladly take the hit in lower MPGs to have more metal around my wife. She's more precious to me than a couple hundred dollars saved a year in fuel cost! Think about it folks. :roll:

unclejjg wrote:

Again, I'll never have the opportunity to jump into each of these cars and drive them around all in one day. So I tend to at least listen to someone's opinion that has had that opportunity.

Does my opinion count then ?

unclejjg wrote:

The Liberty is still a specialized vehicle, and much of the cost of the vehicle itself comes from the components necessary to deliver its 4x4 performance. The cost must be taken out of other things....otherwise you get a Land Rover...who could afford it?

Can't argue with that.

Katmandu · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:06 am

Read this C&D reader's Review I just found! He stated EXACTLY what I was saying above!!

http://www.caranddriver.com/userroadtes ... berty.html

Quote:

Pros: Safe and Reliable
Cons: Mileage

Review: My 2005 Jeef Liberty was rear ended at 60mph by a full size SUV. The Jeep was stationary when the impact occured. I was one of three passengers in the vehicle. Although some injures were sustained, all passengers are alive because the rear end of the Jeep absorbed the majority of the impact. After $9,000 of estimated body damage, the Jeep Liberty proved to be instrumental in keeping me and my passengers safe.

I can guarauntee you that if these people were in one of the above mentioned TOY CUVs (including the RAV-4 and Escape), they would ALL BE DEAD right now!

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:57 pm

Katmandu wrote:

unclejjg wrote:

Further, I doubt that anybody here has had the opportunity to drive all of these vehicles, on the same ground, within the same day.

Well, how about somebody that has driven (4) of these vehicles + (2) similar models (7) Total....within a (2) week period on the same roads ? Will that do ? :?:

Well, that person is ME.

I drove the following in the last (2) weeks.

- 08 Liberty Limited 4x4
- 08 Nitro SLT 4x4
- 08 Suzuki Grand Vitara 4x4
- 07 Suzuki Grand Vitara 4x4
- 08 Ford Escape XLT AWD
- 08 Honda CR-V AWD
- 08 Honda Element EX AWD

unclejjg wrote:

Their opinions: The Liberty had the most truck-like feel, and due to its suspension, swayed the most. They had a hard time keeping it straight. The interior was cramped due to the foot-well and narrow seat cushions..

The Liberty rides FAR better than any of the TRUE SUVs. Crossover or CUVs really should NOT even be compared. They are comparing apples to oranges. The Honda CR-V rides like a car. Which it should. It's (and other CUVs) off-road capabilities are nowhere near the Libertys. Comparing them is idiotic IMHO!

I will admit, I DID notice a "flaw" in the 08 Liberty's handling department. Probably what C&D noticed as well. I think it is more of a front end alignment issue and poor dampning in the front shocks/springs.

CUVs (CR-V and the Nissan) are TOYS compared to the Liberty and the Grand Vitara. As are the Rav-4 and the Escape XLT. Both are cheap IMHO! Capable for suburban roads only.

The only vehicle that I drove that even came close to the Liberty was the Grand Vitara. Very nice vehicle overall, but road about the SAME as my 05 Liberty. Nowhere near the nice ride of the 08 Liberty!! NOT EVEN CLOSE!

The 08 Liberty IS a heavier, sturdier and MUCH SAFER vehicle overall IMHO and THAT is precisely why I'm "TRYING" to buy one for my wife!! I'll gladly take the hit in lower MPGs to have more metal around my wife. She's more precious to me than a couple hundred dollars saved a year in fuel cost! Think about it folks. :roll:

unclejjg wrote:

Again, I'll never have the opportunity to jump into each of these cars and drive them around all in one day. So I tend to at least listen to someone's opinion that has had that opportunity.

Does my opinion count then ?

unclejjg wrote:

The Liberty is still a specialized vehicle, and much of the cost of the vehicle itself comes from the components necessary to deliver its 4x4 performance. The cost must be taken out of other things....otherwise you get a Land Rover...who could afford it?

Can't argue with that.

Thank you for an honest review...that C&D report kinda made me mad and that is why i haven't posted in this thread

_UnLiMiTeD_ · **Posted:** Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:17 pm

i would never trade my libby in for any of those vehicles. I did get to test drive an 08 finally last week and it also drives nice, though, too soft of suspension for me, but still felt very solid. I would rather have a solid built vehicle that can actually go places besides a dirt road without getting stuck. For god sakes we still need some suv's that are actually usefull besides just being an oversized car.

indianrefining · **Posted:** Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:35 pm

kdub wrote:

I was at a friends place this past weekend and he gets Car and Driver and brought out the latest to show me an article they did called Mud Puppies 2008. They compared Jeep Liberty Limited 4x4, Hyundai Tucson Limited 4WD, 2008 Ford Escape XLT AWD, Saturn Vue XE AWD, Suzuki Grand Vitara 4WD, Mitsubishi Outlander ES 4WD, Nissan Rogue SL AWD, , Honda CR-V EX 4WD, Toyota RAV4 4x4.

Now since this article sounds like they are comparing the off road capabilities the KK should come out on top? Nope. The ranked it dead last. Not only was the test not really about off-road performance, the only off-road off-road "points" awarded in the test were out of 5 and the jeep got a 4 while most everyone else got a 3.

But get this, the liberty was the only one they were brave enough to try and get through a big mud hole, then they got it stuck, and it was downhill from there.

here is the article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/14473/ford-escape-v-honda-cr-v-v-hyundai-tucson-v-jeep-liberty-v-nissan-rogue-v-mitsubishi-outlander-v-saturn-vue-v-suzuki-grand-vitara-vtoyota-rav4.html

the article just pisses me off because they make it sound like an off-road test then score the KK pretty bad. For example, in the towing area they do list that the KK has the best towing of the bunch, but the one the tested did not have the towing package so it was graded second to last in towing. And the objective "Gotta Have It" and "Fun To Drive" were the lowest of the bunch too. Now I know why I don't get Car and Driver.

Edit: I did notice that the KK can hold the most beer cases with the back seats folded down at 42 cases. Woo-hoo!

Unless they're talking about sports cars, those pompous a$$es at Car & Driver are about 99% full of horse hockey.

kdub · **Joined:** Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:09 pm **Posts:** 21

Thanks Katmandu for posting your analysis. I love my KK and did not agree with a lot of the opinions in that article. Granted, I have not driven the other vehicles mentioned, but when I was doing research before buying the KK I ruled all of those out for some reason or another and I am glad I did.

ozzysjeep · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:29 pm

I just traded our 06 Suzuki GV in for an 08 Liberty. The GV is smaller and more car-like. Though it was better on gas, I prefer having more power, more room and greater off road capability with the KK. Our Libby will be in the woods as well as the highway. The Jeep handles snow and ice covered roads better than Suzuki as well. I discovered that two days after I bought the Liberty.

Jeepman56 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:31 am

This comparo reminds me of one I saw back in April of '06 Rock Hopper SUVs, when I used to get the magazine (lin below). Hummer H3, Toyota FJ, Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, and Nissan Xterra. The 2 SUVs that did the best off road (which the name of the test clearly implies) got 4th (Hummer) and 3rd (FJ) while the Jeep got 2nd and the Xterra got 1st because of on road performance mostly. To tell you the truth I am kind of surprised that the BMW 3 series didn't win this comparison coming from this magazine. As far as the test in this thread, I would gladly take a KK over a KIA or any of these other car based SUVs any day.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/10776/rock-hopper-suvs.html

USAFCOP · **Posted:** Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:10 am

Basically drive what you like... Those mags are for certain audiences, and they will tell anyone who disagrees with their "holier than thou" oppinions that they are wrong.

Don't worry about what they say, they are ignorant.

I do not have a KK, and honestly probably never will... but I agree with what you all say, not them. But then again, I can not afford a BMW because that is the only car really worth buying anyway right? :roll:

Pablo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm **Posts:** 1201

I don't understand why people buy fake suvs, just buy a car. A Buick Lucerne would have got better marks from this C & D test.

The only possible reason I can see is the better view you get in a cuv as opposed to a car. Is that worth the crappy gas mileage? Why don't they just make cars with a periscope hooked to a lcd monitor. When you want to see ahead-- raise the scope up. Good MPG and you get the only advantage of being in a CUV.

Having said that those V6 Rav4's are peppy.

KK · **Posted:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:51 pm

I used to respect that magazine because they were unbiased toward singling out manufacturers of american or import cars and trucks. Their heads need to be pulled from the arse's. All I read there now is jap, korea. and crappy brit 4's. Like a Jeep is just not good enough anmore, they witch about the materials, which are fine, they witch about the power. In their world you need 500HP to climb hills and go through mud, it's not who has the most power for off roading, its SKILL unless your in the baja 1000 , it's endless bitching with these guys anymore, whine, whine, whine!! They are getting old and too darn rigid!!

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:03 pm

the KK is down on power, period. the KJ is down on power, and the KK is heavier, therefore...well, what i said. you don't need 500 hp, but 275 would certainly be nice in a 4,500 pound vehicle, and could probably be done without killing gas mileage.

KK · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:54 am

My reply was not aimed at you, sorry if you thought so. However, I don't think the Libby is under powered, yeah it may weigh 4500lbs., but so what, it has plenty of towing power, passing, and offroad prowess to satisfy my needs, I have yet to say "I wish I had more power". If I thought it was low on more or torque I wouldn't have bought it. This is my 5th Jeep, and 2 of those were Libby's. And Jeep knows what their doing. What difference would 275HP make except maybe better take off, but for four wheelin' it is not going to help. My friends 08 xterra has something like 268HP and yeah its great off road but it doesn't do anyting I can't with 235HP, and I've had to pull him out twice of some situations, it's skill not "HP", but people will slways debate this.

_UnLiMiTeD_ · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:11 am

235 not 190 dont make it sound worse then it already is!!!!! lol. Either way, if it can tow 5000 lbs then its got plenty of power. For an suv its got plenty of power, its not a sports car. For what it is, it does perfectly fine

Diggerfreek · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:13 am

yep...but i wish it got a little better mpg...but oh well... i didn't buy it for the mpgs any way

KK · **Posted:** Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:16 pm

I meant 235HP, it was late last night when I posted and thinking of the old 4.0L wrangler I used to that was rated at 190HP...yeah more MPG would be nice too, but I'm with you I didn't get my Liberty for the MPG's either I bought it for it offers and does on/off-road and the number one reason, it's a Jeep!

C&D comparison - KK 9th????

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